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Should you learn slang? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| HMS Senior Member England Joined 5107 days ago 143 posts - 256 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 41 of 51 27 November 2012 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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Lots of English slang is not proper slang per se - it's users attempting to emulate a lifestyle they affectate - often the "gangsta" lifestyle. It is not uncommon to see a middle class white man in London affecting a Jamaican accent. There is a quite famous Radio 1 DJ who is the white son of a bishop. He DJs 'Hip Hop' music and he puts on an accent trying to sound "black". His name is Tim Westwood. He receives much ridicule for this but he earns so much money it bothers him not.
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| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 42 of 51 27 November 2012 at 8:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have to commend everybody for making this thread interesting so far. No mudslinging and lots of interesting points. Something that we haven't really attacked head on of course is the definition of slang.
I'm not going to attempt such a herculean task, but there are a few distinctions that perhaps should be made. I think we tend to lump a few things into slang. For example: 1. Profanities 2. Insults and slurs (including ethnic, religious and racial) 3. Vulgar terms, usually for body parts and biological functions 4. Terms used by social groups to distinguish themselves 5. Jargon of specialized groups as seen in the media (police, military, lawyers,etc,) 6. Word associated with youthful rebellion and rejection of parental authority 7. Ephemeral terms for elements of fashion and passing fads. There are probably other things that could be added to this list. Or maybe the list should be reworked I also want to point out that in the OP I referred to low prestige language forms that may not technically be slang. I was thinking more of pronunciation and grammar. These things can be picked up inadvertently by learners. Edited by s_allard on 28 November 2012 at 12:12am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 43 of 51 27 November 2012 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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So you define slang roughly as language that can't be used in all situations, by everyone.
There is of course language that we should use with caution, but that doesn't make it slang -- the words deviant, retarded or obese are not slang, but I'd be careful not to use them carelessly. The fact that a word has a potential for conflict doesn't make it slang. On the other hand, if I use some language when I speak with friends and family, if my parents use the same language, and if my grand-parents use(d) it too, even it were to technically qualify as slang, there comes a point where language is just language. Edited by Arekkusu on 28 November 2012 at 12:02am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 44 of 51 27 November 2012 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | ||
I may have spoken too soon when I commended everyone for the tenor of the thread. Where did I say that slang is language that can't be used in all situations, by everyone? Where did I say that words that require caution are slang? And how could I not agree that there comes a point where language is just language? But what did I say? Let me quote myself: "... Something that we haven't really attacked head on of course is the definition of slang. I'm not going to attempt such a herculean task, but there are a few distinctions that perhaps should be made. I think we tend to lump a few things into slang. For example: 1. Profanities 2. Insults and slurs (including ethnic, religious and racial) 3. Vulgar terms, usually for body parts and biological functions 4. Terms used by social groups to distinguish themselves 5. Jargon of specialized groups as seen in the media (police, military, lawyers,etc,) 6. Word associated with youthful rebellion and rejection of parental authority 7. Ephemeral terms for elements of fashion and passing fads. There are probably other things that could be added to this list. Or maybe the list should be reworked I also want to point out that in the OP I referred to low prestige language forms that may not technically be slang. I was thinking more of pronunciation and grammar. These things can be picked up inadvertently by learners." Are there things to be reworked? Are my distinctions incorrect? Where do the words obese, retarded and deviant fit into these categories? Maybe there are items to be removed. Maybe my attempt at defining slang is all wrong. If somebody has a better definition of slang, then please share it with us. How about a bit of constructive criticism. Frankly, I'm reminded of that great quote by Chateaubriand: Il faut être économe de son mépris en raison du grand nombre de nécessiteux. Edited by s_allard on 28 November 2012 at 12:13am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 45 of 51 27 November 2012 at 11:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I like to be conservative when it comes to grammar. I can't avoid thinking of the grand scheme of things (general and IE linguistics); I have to admit I sort of have subjective categories of wrong and right here. There are some "false positives", most notably the Spanish "a mi me gusta" thing (and no, I don't insist on saying it incorrectly but I cringe every time), but I tend to simply agree with the more conservative speakers, unless I just feel there ain't any objective reason for the rule (like the two instances in this sentence, obviously). Dunno if this made sense... Colloquial contractions are perfectly okay to me btw. Edited by Serpent on 27 November 2012 at 11:49pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 46 of 51 28 November 2012 at 12:06am | IP Logged | ||
Seriously? 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 47 of 51 28 November 2012 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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Since no-one has stepped up to the plate on the question of what is slang, I'll weigh in on two issues that I think are related. The first is the place of nonstandard language forms. In English, for example, forms like "I is", "I seen" and "I didn't eat nothing" are considered nonstandard. In Québécois French we have nonstandard third person plural forms like "ils jousent" and "ils risent".
The interesting thing is that all these forms are actually quite comprehensible and even logical. But they are highly stigmatized as signs of being uneducated and illiterate. This kind of language is never - or very rarely - taught to foreigners. The other issue of importance to us as learners of a language is how can we learn to distinguish between what is good and bad, Obviously if you stick to the textbooks and courses, you will always learn the proper or standard language. But what happens when you venture out into the streets and you want to imitate what you hear? I don't want to make this into a bigger problem than it really is because I don't think many learners will be frolicking with uneducated illiterates in their target languages, but it can be an issue when one is trying hard to "go native." This is where the help of a native expert observer is invaluable. You want someone who can help you navigate the linguistic shoals and help you avoid sounding ridiculous or condescending. This does not only apply to nonstandard stigmatized language. Certain words may become fashionable among young people and will sound incongruous coming from an older person. I'm thinking for example of the intransitive verb "to suck", as in "That course sucks" or even "dude" as used by college students in North America. Of course, it is interesting to see how with time these forms can become mainstream and widespread. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 48 of 51 29 November 2012 at 5:23am | IP Logged | ||
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I've just finished reading a fabulous article by Robert L. Moore in the journal American Speech (2004) and entitled, "We're Cool, Mom and Dad Are Swell: Basic Slang and Generational Shifts in Values." It details precisely how the word "swell" came to be replaced by "cool" in the 20th century.
while reading the article, I came across a definition of slang by Jonathan Lighter from the 2001 edition of The Cambridge History of the English Language: "Slang denotes an informal, nonstandard, nontechnical vocabulary composed chiefly of novel-sounding synonyms (and near synonyms) for standard words and phrases; it is often associated with youthful, raffish, or undignified persons and groups, and it conveys often striking connotations of impertinence or irreverence, especially for established attitudes and values within the prevailing culture." Sounds pretty good to me. I'm sure people can find something to quibble about but at least it points us in the right direction without some obstructionist red herring. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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