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Being precise about fluency? | ||
Tags: Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6582 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 33 of 48 26 November 2012 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
What now? A discussion about the definition of fluency failed to reach a consensus? Well I never!
I never understood CEFR at all. I find the current HTLAL levels pretty good. To me CEFR is great for if you have a certificate, but for self-assessment it seems shaky. And when some people have a certificate and others are just "guessing" it'll be chaotic. CEFR also looks really specific but doesn't really account for lopsided proficiency. I can read 19th century literature in French without problems, but I've hardly ever used it in conversation, so I don't really know my spoken proficiency. I'm guessing it's pretty low. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 34 of 48 26 November 2012 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I personally think our scale is more honest. Nobody will want to admit they're A2 when with a little stretch they can consider themselves B1 (like Benny). 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 35 of 48 26 November 2012 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Moving to the CEFR model does not solve the problem of self-overrating. What is does provide for those who are not intent on passing the tests is a relatively clear reference model that is well documented and with lots of materials that teach or demonstrate the various levels. All classroom teaching materials produced in Europe today reference the CEFR model. The self-teaching materials are resisting, I think, because it forces them to have hard look at exactly what the learners will be able to do.
How many of the self-teaching products, including Rosetta Stone, Rocket, Fluenz, Assimil, Michel Thomas, Pimsleur, etc. say exactly what you will be able to do after finishing the course? What most promise is that you will speak fluently (like a native) in a very short time. I think we are all aware of the complications of assessing proficiency in the various aspects of language performance and how hard it is to choose one label, be it B1 or C2, as a indicator of general competence. But the nice thing about the CEFR model is that it is a modern standard we can work with. The last point I want to make is that many of us are already using the CEFR scale in our discussions here at HTLAL. I'm not sure everybody has read the underlying definitions, but most people are comfortable using the six A-C levels. Some people are even sitting the exams for whatever reasons. So, I think it's just a question of time before HTLAL gets with the program. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6447 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 36 of 48 26 November 2012 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Benny gets a lot of bad rap. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 37 of 48 26 November 2012 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Also, if we explicitly use the CEFR scale, people will claim the appropriate level after taking a class and/or completing a textbook, whereas especially their listening is very likely to lag behind if they're not in the country of the target language.
Note that when we mention CEFR, it tends to be one skill at a time. Being specific is both an advantage and a drawback. As I've already said, it's fantastic for quick, clear descriptions (classes, jobs), but what's the use of saying "I'm A2 at speaking and A1 at listening" when you can just say "I'm a beginner and I speak better than I understand"? :DDD Edited by Serpent on 26 November 2012 at 6:35pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6582 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 38 of 48 26 November 2012 at 6:36pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I'd react the other way. I'd hesitate to claim my level as B1 if I'm not absolutely sure I'd pass a B1 test (and at that point I'd likely be at least B2 already), for fear of being hung out on the Internet and accused of being a fraud (like Benny). Benny can take it, but I'm not sure I would be able to. The current levels are vague enough that I feel like I can get away with claiming "Basic Fluency", but if we're talking Levels which have Certificates and Definitions and European Frameworks and, as we say in Sweden, the Devil and his aunt, I don't think I'd use it at all for fear of making a claim I can't back up (which is a deadly sin in internet polyglottery). Edited by Ari on 26 November 2012 at 6:38pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5532 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 39 of 48 26 November 2012 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Assimil actually does claim that many of their beginner courses go up to CEFRL B2. The consensus around HTLAL seems to be closer to A2 active/B1 passive, give or take a bit. As you rightfully point out, self-assessment is hard. I think most people will guess about one level too high if they use the Wikipedia definitions. If you want a more accurate self-assessment, or at least one more in line with the various national exams, the Council of Europe used to publish an excellent checklist on their website.
Well, one of the nice things about studying French is that the DELF/DALF exams are really rather decent. They measure your abilities to read, write, speak and listen using actual native content, and if you want to study for the test, then at least you'll spend your time doing fairly realistic things. Now, not all CEFRL exams test the same things. Some are easier than others, some care more about your accent than the CEFRL recommends (the French), and some include hideous grammar questions (the Germans). But overall, there's been a huge amount of effort and research focused on making the CEFRL exams consistent and useful, and it's nice to have some kind of semi-reasonable framework when talking about these things. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 40 of 48 04 December 2012 at 1:48am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Another reason not to use CEFR is that the threads get not so appropriate tags or just end up moved to the "Certificates" subforum.
1 person has voted this message useful |
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