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Learning from "uneducated" speakers | ||
Tags: Language Banditry | Native Speakers | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5334 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 9 of 23 10 December 2012 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I came across a curious case the other day. The son of a friend of ours, who is Cuban, speaks a Spanish which is difficult to understand - even for his own parents - and he makes spelling errors like "ola" instead of "hola" and "aser" instead of "hacer".
Now my theory is that the boy has an undetected hearing problem which causes some of his issues, but nevertheless he has so far come across as uneducated to his peers, and I would definitely not recommend anyone to learn Spanish from him. He would probably be right in 95% of the cases, but the last 5% would make me uncomfortable. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5766 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 10 of 23 10 December 2012 at 5:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I sometimes use the term when defining my own language goal, to 'sound like an educated non-native speaker'. With that I mean that I want my language level to be fully functional in any professional or social setting, but I don't strive for a native-like level unless I become part of a community of speakers.
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| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4668 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 11 of 23 11 December 2012 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Even many educated speakers use ''uneducated'' forms in informal speech.
You don't hear much SHALL or WHOM in Hollywood sitcoms ;) ANYWAYS, GONNA, GOTTA, WANNA, and AIN'T are more common than SHALL or WHOM. ;) Edited by Medulin on 11 December 2012 at 1:50pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Kyle Corrie Senior Member United States Joined 4829 days ago 175 posts - 464 votes | Message 12 of 23 11 December 2012 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
Now I understand you got a lot of "feel good" votes from this comment, but it's actually quite absurd. This would indicate you don't actually seek out people who speak your target language. ...Seeing as how you're after just the "connection", right? Or are you only after connections with people who speak your target language? Or do you embark on learning a language and wait for a person to drop from the sky whom you already have a connection with and, magically enough, just so happens to speak your target language? You need to be honest with yourself. It is actually about absorbing what you can from the speaker. Yes, they may be a very nice person and you guys get along great (you may even become good friends), but the only reason you came across each other in the first place is because you were seeking someone to practice with. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4707 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 13 of 23 11 December 2012 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Not...really? In terms of French, it literally came onto my path because of a foreign
girlfriend. In terms of Russian, I decided to learn it on a whim and those people that I talk to regularly contacted me first. I have no regular correspondence in Swedish at this point in time. Of course I absorb what I can from the other person, but those people that are my friends are my friends because I like them, not because they speak French. But I may like them and have relationships through French with them because that is what they speak. I do not see "talking to person X" as language practice. It is good that they happen to be from Russia and thus I speak Russian with them (and usually refuse to speak anything but) but no. If I wanted them as a language partner to learn from I would pay them to be my teacher, and in that case, I would go look at iTalki or Myngle. I speak Russian because they are my friends and I want to discover things about their culture. It's the same thing as saying "I want to get to know this girl, but the only reason I'm doing it is to get into her pants". Then when she says no, you disappear. That is what you're suggesting. In that case what you want is not a girlfriend but sex. So pay someone for sex (it's legal in some places!). I simply meet people, and speak to them in a particular language. Sometimes that's a language I already speak, sometimes it's not. I can become more or less passionate about a certain language due to the people I know. Of course I absorb things about the language from them, but I don't do it because they are my vehicles to speak that language. I absorb it because I speak Russian to them because that is how we have conversations. Or do you think every conversation I ever have with them is about the Russian language? No, it's not. I have talked about nuclear reactors, love, life, Siberia, Alice in Wonderland, music, and psychology before (in Russian, just to name a few topics) and that is a reason for me to continue speaking Russian to them. Because it's fun to speak to them. If you see people as an means to an end you are violating their intrinsic humanity and their basic human right to be treated as such. That's a basic tenet for me from which I do not stray. Sure I will make a concerted effort to speak Russian with Russians if possible. Sure I will ask if we can speak in Russian (and sometimes flat out refuse to speak English). But I'm not doing it for the sake of me having 100% competency in Russian. That would be really weird. And yes, if I'm passionate about Russian I will put myself in a position where I find more Russian speakers to practice with. But I am not going to just talk to everybody just so I can try out my fledgling Russian on them. I am not THAT depraved. Edited by tarvos on 11 December 2012 at 5:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Tsopivo Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4471 days ago 258 posts - 411 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Esperanto | Message 14 of 23 11 December 2012 at 7:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
Contrary to Tarvos, I don't think that doing that would be depraved - just as, in keeping with his girlfriend-or-just-sex comparison, I do not think looking for sex only in a relationship is depraved. However, this is not because you do it that you are right to assume that everyone else who's learning a language on this planet is doing the same and worse, that they are being dishonest with themselves. Personnally, I assure you that I have very rarely sought out native-speaker of my TL, and the few times I tried, it never worked out because my motivation for TL in itself was never a sufficient motivation to build a relationship with someone. Yet, I have met a considerable amount of TL native-speaker, some of which have become my friends and family. Meeting native speaker of your TL without specifically looking for them might seem magical when you present it the way you do but in real life, meeting people who "just happen to" be native-speaker of your TL could happen in any number of circumstances. For instance, it is something quite common, both amongst language enthusiast, and the general population to love travelling abroad and if you are travelling to a country where your TL language is spoken, you are bound to meet some native-speakers. Of course, that is only an example. You could be a fan of your TL music, films, culture or whatever . You could live in a place where your TL is quite common. You could be a part of the couchsurfing community. You could be a teacher in your NL... The mere fact of being a language enthusiast means there is more chance to meet other language enthusiast - in places like this forum for instance - and among them, some are probably going to be native-speaker of your TL. Edit: As for uneducated native-speakers, I have never met a native-speaker who spoke his native-language "badly" in my view if that what is meant by uneducated. If I did meet one, I would not avoid talking to them. I guess it could be a problem if you are at an early stage of learning and most of what you hear in your TL is from people who do not speak it well. Varying your sources of listening should prevent that though. However, I do avoid forums in early stages of learning and I pick carefully the ones I want to join when I do because I think reading too much errors all the time, especially at an early stage, could hurt your writing abilities. I think you could find errors in most posts in even the best forums - you could certainly find more than that in mine - and that's OK but some forums are so plaggued with them you can barely recognise the language. If uneducated native-speaker just refer to a lack of academic education, I could not care less. Edited by Tsopivo on 11 December 2012 at 8:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4707 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 15 of 23 11 December 2012 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Just wanting only sex is okay. But it's not ok to lead people on. I am in this language
for the long haul and thus I am not going to use people as target practice just for the sake of target practice. Some relationships are purely physical; it's the same with languages. And that's okay. You should just be clear to specify what you want. I personally think just using people for French practice is really, really weird in terms of priorities 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5766 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 16 of 23 11 December 2012 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
If that's the level at which you want to interpret social interaction, it's equally important to ask what you give back to the person for being allowed to talk to them even though your language skills aren't great, so it's a hassle for them. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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