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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| tbone Diglot Groupie United States Joined 4983 days ago 92 posts - 132 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 9 of 200 06 April 2011 at 6:03am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Popular Science, Dec 1968 mentions the 61-hour experiment:
http://books.google.com/books? id=D9QDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=synectics+international+ Spanish+language&source=bl&ots=6KHam 4- 1Em&sig=w_YshE0ND2thyKFpCi8Av9HBoPQ&hl=en&ei=SeObTevyMoH4sAO H2aGcBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=res ult&resnum=9&ved=0CGAQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=synectics%20interna tional%20spanish%20language&f=false as done by a Canadian think-tank on a Canadian businessman. I would think the DLI would be all over this if it were effective. (Ooh, maybe they are...could you brainwash languages into recruits and then make them forget how you did it?) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5661 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 10 of 200 06 April 2011 at 8:48am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Assuming that fluency requires a vocabulary of at least 10,000 words, then the 61-hour
session would require you to learn and retain more than 3 words in a minute, and repeat this more than 3,000 times in those 2.5 days. On top of this, your brain would have to be absorbing and making sense of grammar, plus thousands of idioms. It is unclear whether or not reading and writing abilities would be crammed in there too. The problem, as always, is that with this 61-hour experiment we have no information on how the success of the experiment was measured. If your ambitions are not too great, you could simulate the experiment by getting hold of an 8 hour Michel Thomas language course, and listen and repeat non-stop, to the whole course, 7 times in a row. I am sure that by the end of it you would have learned a lot. You may even be able to astonish onlookers that over a single weekend you went "from zero to hero". However, you could have done the same course over a few weeks - and not feel exhausted at the end. So, I am unsure what the benefit is. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5326 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 11 of 200 06 April 2011 at 9:15am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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As one who have struggled with Russian for a year without all that much to show for it, I am very interested in your experiment. Please let us know how you are doing. I am going to Ukraine in less than two weeks, so any method that would make me learn Russian before that is more than welcome. Best of luck!
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| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6003 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 12 of 200 06 April 2011 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I'm not familiar with PhotoReading and the Wikipedia article is pretty damning, but leaving that to one side, I'll give you the same advice I give to anyone who suggests using any speedreading or accelerated reading technique to learn a language:
All speed-reading relies on the fact that we know the language in question. Our brain doesn't need to fully process every letter or even every word to understand a sentence, because certain things go together and certain things don't. "three ~~~ ~ half" is "three and a half" -- there's really nothing else it could be. Speed reading is at best not possible in a language you don't yet know, at worst it's damaging, because you miss out detail. In particular, speed-reading is dangerous in terms of prepositions (speed readers often skip the prepositions, seeing only "a short word" and letting their brains fill in the gap -- in fact, many normal readers work this way too) or inflections (conjugations/declensions) -- a good example of the latter is the French past historic. A lot of French people can't write in the past historic, but they can read it. They don't need to pay attention to the full form because they have pronouns to tell them which person it is. 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Abazid Diglot Newbie Egypt Joined 5009 days ago 16 posts - 23 votes Speaks: Arabic (Egyptian)*, English Studies: Russian | Message 13 of 200 07 April 2011 at 6:13am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I'm curious what type of material are you interested in? Mostly documentaries & video training programs that I can't find anywhere in Russian , Along some rare books .
Forget about this article , It's bunk , It's the first thing I've read when I wanted to learn photoreading , You should go to the forum and check out real people's experiences , You'll be baffled . In my own experience , PR saved my ass so many times , I've passed tests that I would have never normally would pass in a very limited time(When you can only cram) , And I'm a science major , It really does work when you stick to it , And it's not really miraculous in anyway , Your subconscious mind receives 4 billion bits of information ONLY visually every single second , All this does is form a connection between the conscious & subconscious . Direct learning is the advanced form of photoreading , Where you photograph 10-20 books in a skill you'd like to learn and going to practice anyway without any form of conscious reading , I've used this to learn drawing & painting from scratch .
I'm real curious about the result of such an experiment , Mainly I will follow this : http://superconscious1.blogspot.com/2008/01/61-hour-language -immersion.html Without the instructors , I'll substitute it for 61 hours of audio learning material like Michel Thomas , Pimsleur & Rosetta Stone , Non-stop . I'll try and expand & explain the foundation & science behind the techniques I'm going to experiment in my next post . Here's the 61-hour deal: http://superconscious1.blogspot.com/2008/01/61-hour-language -immersion.html Couldn't find the actual experiment, though. Imagine that if this technique works, you'd have to place quite an amount of trust in your instructors. Originally this exercise was from the book "100 % Brain Course" . We're being brainwashed already on a day to day basis whether it's on your PC , TV , School , politics..etc , But I do agree it'd have to be someone you trust if you're gonna go this far with it , I'm sticking with Audio CDs for now . It'd be interesting to see some actual results from this - interviews from people that have gone through it. If this were indeed successful, I'm pretty sure we'd all be lining up around the planet to learn a language this way. I'd never heard of this before your posting. Well it was very effective in Re-education during the wars , But I've never seen it myself applied widely in learning ,I've studied Brainwashing for a while , And the communist version of it , Was to add "Shock & Trauma" to the equation to induce multiple personality syndrome , And then through Brainwashing & Hypnosis , The person would have a shattered re-educated personality of a loyal communist along with his old american personality , Sounds too far fetched ? Research it yourself along with MPD , This probably why Brainwashing had a negative connotation . When the brain learns a new ability -- physical or mental -- it needs time to create physical connections. The more you practice, the more connections you create. There is no miracle. I agree , But time really doesn't exist and is different from each person to the next , We distort time almost always , So it differs from one person to the next according to the flexibility of his own beliefs . Popular Science, Dec 1968 mentions the 61-hour experiment: http://books.google.com/books? id=D9QDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=synectics+international+ Spanish+language&source=bl&ots=6KHam 4- 1Em&sig=w_YshE0ND2thyKFpCi8Av9HBoPQ&hl=en&ei=SeObTevyMoH4sAO H2aGcBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=res ult&resnum=9&ved=0CGAQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=synectics%20interna tional%20spanish%20language&f=false Thanks for the link ! as done by a Canadian think-tank on a Canadian businessman. I would think the DLI would be all over this if it were effective. Not necessarily , A good example is how water-based fuel was invented a very long time ago , YET we're still using oil , Or the abundance of creative learning methods all over the place and yet we're still functioning in the saggy memorize type of learning . We'll see how it works ;D . (Ooh, maybe they are...could you brainwash languages into recruits and then make them forget how you did it?) Yeah , That's absolutely possible through Hypnosis , It'll feel like missing time or memories could be even suggested . Assuming that fluency requires a vocabulary of at least 10,000 words, then the 61-hour session would require you to learn and retain more than 3 words in a minute, and repeat this more than 3,000 times in those 2.5 days. On top of this, your brain would have to be absorbing and making sense of grammar, plus thousands of idioms. It is unclear whether or not reading and writing abilities would be crammed in there too. The problem, as always, is that with this 61-hour experiment we have no information on how the success of the experiment was measured. I'm not aiming for absolute fluency , It's mentioned in the link above that in 12 hours the student mastered about 1000 words of vocabulary , I think that this alone is a very good start for anyone , And continuing would be result in great improvements , And anyways I've got nothing to lose and a lot to gain =) . If your ambitions are not too great, you could simulate the experiment by getting hold of an 8 hour Michel Thomas language course, and listen and repeat non-stop, to the whole course, 7 times in a row. I am sure that by the end of it you would have learned a lot. You may even be able to astonish onlookers that over a single weekend you went "from zero to hero". However, you could have done the same course over a few weeks - and not feel exhausted at the end. So, I am unsure what the benefit is. Well first of all this is not about my ego , And I dun agree that there's no benefit in this compared with the normal routine , The whole idea here is that later it would be REAL easy to solidly imprint information in the brain related to anything ,And if It worked perfectly on American soldiers for re-education in such time , I dun doubt this indeed could be as effective , So we'll see what happens . As one who have struggled with Russian for a year without all that much to show for it, I am very interested in your experiment. Please let us know how you are doing. I am going to Ukraine in less than two weeks, so any method that would make me learn Russian before that is more than welcome. Best of luck! Thanks for your kind thoughts =) , I will . I'm not familiar with PhotoReading and the Wikipedia article is pretty damning That article is actually bunk (If you're interested in a more concise explanation check Reading Genius & Zox reading system sites), But mainly PR is different from Rapid reading , It's more like mental photography , And I've used it to study material as complex as physical chemistry , It helps on many aspects of understanding & memorizing and saves a lot of time . In this case it would be the mental photography of a dictionary , Along with many other russian language books before starting the learning process . All speed-reading relies on the fact that we know the language in question. Our brain doesn't need to fully process every letter or even every word to understand a sentence, because certain things go together and certain things don't. "three ~~~ ~ half" is "three and a half" -- there's really nothing else it could be. Speed reading is at best not possible in a language you don't yet know, at worst it's damaging, because you miss out detail. In particular, speed-reading is dangerous in terms of prepositions (speed readers often skip the prepositions, seeing only "a short word" and letting their brains fill in the gap -- in fact, many normal readers work this way too) or inflections (conjugations/declensions) -- a good example of the latter is the French past historic. A lot of French people can't write in the past historic, but they can read it. They don't need to pay attention to the full form because they have pronouns to tell them which person it is. I completely agree , I've had the same experience while using it for memorizing complex symbolic material , It becomes normal reading . 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6574 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 14 of 200 07 April 2011 at 10:13am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I don't get it. Why would you use this method when you could instead use the same site to learn to understand any spoken language? Much more useful. And you can also learn levitation and telepathy on this site. ... So, uh, you're a science major, huh? 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6003 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 15 of 200 07 April 2011 at 11:44am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
If you agree, why are you even considering it? The brain is not a camera and it generalises all input in terms of known patterns. If you don't know the patterns, it cannot process it subconciously. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6003 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 16 of 200 07 April 2011 at 11:48am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
There is a skeptic in the room, and he is interfering with the flow of my psychic energies. I urge you to believe, or begone from my sight! Ohm.... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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