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Egyptian Arabic after Pimsleur | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| 3mar Newbie United States Joined 4556 days ago 4 posts - 9 votes Studies: Arabic (Egyptian) | Message 9 of 23 15 June 2012 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Although it was a very big part of the reason I stopped using it, the fact that Rosetta Stone was MSA was not the entire reason. I really didn’t like the order in which information was presented and the lack of instruction (the immersion style) works well at first but becomes a hindrance when more complicated grammatical structures are introduced. That’s why when we learn our first language; we are given instruction once we get beyond the basic.
Regarding MSA vs Egyptian dialect, I have had this internal debate, as many Arabic learners have, and decided that for my purposes, it makes more sense to learn the dialect first. As an example as to why I made this decision take the paragraph below describing the ability gained by knowing MSA in traveling to any Arab country. Insert “MSA” into all the blanks and see if you agree: In arriving at the airport and in any day-to-day activities knowing _____ will not allow you to understand what is being said around you. If a person you come in contact with has had a formal education, if you speak ____ they will likely understand you. They may, or may not, reply to you in ____ however and if they don’t reply to you in ____ and instead use their dialect, then you won’t understand them. In knowing ___ you won’t understand what people around you are saying. Those around you will have to switch to speaking ___ for you to be able to communicate with them. If they haven’t had a formal education, then they will likely not speak ___ and your communication with them will be limited. By speaking ___ to native speakers, they will not be communicating with you how they typically talk to one another. Now, if you agree with the statement made above about MSA (even if not fully), go back and read it again, but this time insert the word “English” into the blanks, and see if you agree with that too. The major argument for learning MSA first (and the main argument in the video you posted) was that it is the best way to be understood by the most people. In other words, it is the best way to improve your communicative ability when traveling to the Arabic Speaking world. Well, that’s not necessarily true. It’s the best way to be understood by the most formally educated people. But you will not understand much of what is going on around you. If you are looking purely for communicative ability, then most people who would be fluent in MSA (i.e. have a formal education) would also be fluent in English (and from my experience a couple of other languages). So if you are looking for an argument for pure communicability, then you might as well just speak English, because they aren’t typically mutually exclusive. And although you may be able to be understood by more people…you still wouldn’t understand anything around you in any of those countries. i.e. no additional communicative ability than just speaking English. For me, the reason I am learning Arabic is about personal identity. It’s about being able to communicate with my family and be able to understand what is going on around me. In all the trips to Egypt I have taken, one of the most frustrating things for me is feeling the distance from events from not being able to follow what is being said. Learning MSA won’t help with that. I understand that MSA is a critical part about truly learning Arabic. I just don’t believe it should be learned first. Arabs don’t learn MSA first, they learn a dialect first, and then they learn MSA when they go to school. As a final test, I emailed my cousin about this question. He is, of all things, an on-air reporter for the Arabic BBC out of London. Unlike most Arab speakers, he uses MSA on a daily basis when on TV. His recommendation what to learn Egyptian Arabic first, then learn MSA. His argument was that this is how people communicate and if communication is what you are looking for, then a dialect is the way to go to start. Also, it is about identity within the Arab world. I’m not saying this is the right answer for everyone, but for me, I feel it is. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4639 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, Guarani*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 10 of 23 15 June 2012 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
I agree with this, communication is a two-way street - understanding and being understood. My main argument was that MSA is more useful to start with if one is interested in learning more than one dialect, and since dialects have several rules that tend to be "simplified" (not always), and based on the foundation of MSA, it is more intuitive or comprehensive to go down that path. Whereas with going from dialect to MSA, the different aspects of the language will seem like more of a mountain climb, and connecting to other dialects would be more difficult. That being said, with your situation, dialect is certainly the more logical choice. It's your family's language and you have knowledge of the script as well, so if you ever decide to further your Arabic studies, then MSA might not be as difficult as it would be for some other students. In addition, Egyptian Arabic materials are becoming more reliable, as some mentioned earlier in this thread, so it shouldn't be as much of an issue. Certainly, what form of Arabic one should start with varies depending on the person's goals, as I earlier stated. If one is learning their family's language, etc. then dialect may be the most logical. If one has to travel to an Arab country in a week or two, then dialect would most definitely also be more important than a strong command of MSA. However, if these aren't the cases, and one simply has a desire to learn Arabic as a whole, MSA-to-Dialect seems to be the most successful path for most students. Nonetheless, I have indeed met a few who've managed quite well the other way around. :-) May I ask, have you decided on what materials to check out? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| 3mar Newbie United States Joined 4556 days ago 4 posts - 9 votes Studies: Arabic (Egyptian) | Message 11 of 23 15 June 2012 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, I agree with you that if you want to holistically learn Arabic that MSA is the best starting point. What I mentioned was merely what accounted for my decision as I went back and forth a couple of times on which way to go. I feel pretty comfortable now though, that I am making the right decision for me in going straight to the Egyptian dialect. I haven't decided what my next step will be in learning. I am meeting with a tutor to see if that will be a good fit. I wasn't able to find an Egyptian to tutor me here in South Florida, but I did find a gentleman from Palestine that knows the Egyptian dialect and we are going to meet. I'll discuss with him any materials that we should use. My cousin also offered to send some learning material from Egypt if needed. I really wish Pimsleur had a level II and III as I really like the style and using the audio was a good way for me to spend a lot of time working on it while in my car and during my morning runs. I think I am going to try the Michel Thomas method in addition to the tutor. It doesn't hurt to have additional study and it will fill the time when I was doing Pimsleur. It starts from the beginning and from what I hear goes pretty slow, but I looked through the course description and there is enough new material to make it a benefit. I used to live in New York City and there were a ton of resources around. That's unfortunately not the case here, but I'll figure it out. I was thinking also of watching Egyptian movies with subtitles as I think that would help too. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4639 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Guarani*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 12 of 23 15 June 2012 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
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^It's great that you're going to try with a tutor. From my exposure, Palestinian has many commonalities with some of the Egyptian dialects due to the proximity of the two areas. This applies to the Levantine dialects as a whole, but even moreso with Palestinian. Of course, there are important differences to take note of, and who knows? You might end up picking up some Palestinian Arabic while managing to focus on Egyptian with the tutor. :)
I would certainly make sure to check some Egyptian movies (and music as well). It's a great way to see how the dialect functions in a more fluid manner. There's a website (Arabic Song Lyrics and Translations) that have some songs sung by Egyptians as well as the lyrics (in Arabic and translated into English), for whenever you feel that you might want to go into that. As for movies, there tends to be a few on Youtube. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Lone_Wolf Groupie United States Joined 5307 days ago 60 posts - 117 votes Speaks: English* | Message 13 of 23 16 June 2012 at 1:03am | IP Logged | |||||
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Well this is a certainly an interesting thread. After reading the comments posted so far I just couldn't resist. :-)
My personal take on Colloquial vs MSA and if one should learn MSA first and then Colloquial or vice versa. Well the part to answer of this question is one's goals and what they wish to accomplish with their language study. If communication is your only goal, then it makes a ton of sense to learn Colloquial. Which Colloquial Dialect to learn also depends on WHO you wish to communicate with. I think that 3mar has all his bases covered in pursuing Colloquial and going for the Dialect that makes sense for his purposes. If reading the Arabic newspapers and literature and watching Arabic News Broadcasts is your only goal then it makes sense to study MSA instead without needing to bother with Colloquial Arabic. Now if a person wishes to be able to do all of these things (reading and watching MSA as well as communicating on an everyday basis) then of course a person would want to learn both varieties. I , personally, would advise against trying to learn both simultaneously. It is my recommendation that a person gains fluency in one variety and then pursue the other. As far as which variety to learn first? I recommend the Colloquial first followed by MSA approach. I do so for FOUR primary reasons: First of all, this is the "Natural" way to learn Wholistic Arabic and is the way that the Arabs themselves learn Colloquial + MSA. Secondly, if a person becomes "fluent" in MSA and then learn Colloquial Arabic, that person is going to have quite a few problems when trying to speak because it is EXTREMELY difficult to Stop speaking in the manner that you were FIRST taught to speak. I have had this problem personally and I have read on the internet a couple of stories of others who have also had this problem. The third reason is because, let's face it, NO ONE speaks MSA. There are a couple of very popular "party lines" that are often repeated in a somewhat verbal "status quo" fashion. One of them is that a person can learn MSA and go ANYWHERE in the Arab world and communicate with the natives. I am going to be pretty bold here and say this is patently untrue. At the very least it is a gross exaggeration. The problems were already pointed out about "some" people understanding you but you not understanding them or anyone else around you because they are speaking in Colloquial Arabic. What wasn't pointed out is that "most" people will not understand you because I have found out that the study of MSA in the Arab countries is something that most Arabs are not passionate about unless they have an academic or professional/career reason to pursue it's study. Hence the saying that "Educated" Arabs can understand MSA. By educated I don't think they are referring to mere High School Graduates but to those who have gone on to University Education and that is NOT the majority of the people you will meet in most Arabic speaking countries. The fourth reason I recommend Colloquial first followed by MSA is because I disagree with the popular saying that MSA lays the foundation for dialect learning. I don't think knowledge of MSA makes the learning of Colloquial Arabic any easier than the knowledge of Colloquial laying the foundation for MSA learning. MSA is MSA and has it's difficult and not so difficult points just like Colloquial is Colloquial with it's difficult and not so difficult points. The reason they say knowing MSA makes it easier to learn Colloquial is because of the similarities in structures and Lexicons between the two but I would argue that this also works the other way around. The similarities between the two will make it just as easy (if not easier) to go from Colloquial to MSA. Something else I wish to add to this is the notion that learning one dialect w/out learning MSA will make it difficult to learn another dialect. I think this is only half true. Learning a Gulf Dialect such as Bagdadi or Hejazi will not help you to learn Darija or Tunisian Dialects. However, knowing Hejazi will be a help when learning Kuwaiti. Knowing Egyptian (Cairene) dialect will help in learning Levantine Arabic. Knowing Moroccan Darija will make it easier to learn Algerian Arabic. It boils down to regional language continuum. If a person is only interested in communicating with Arabs and has no interest in watching the news, reading newspapers or reading poetry and literature, then that person needs not to even bother with MSA at all. How easy or difficult it will be for that person to learn their next dialect will depend greatly on the dialect they have attained fluency in. I dream to see the day when students of Arabic language no longer have MSA shoved upon them because the status quo tells us that one MUST learn if they wish to say that they truly know Arabic rather they have mastered dialect(s) or not. My Humble Two Cents. Peace Everyone, L.W. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5833 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 14 of 23 16 June 2012 at 3:03am | IP Logged | |||||
You make some interesting points Lone Wolf, and I agree with you about the importance of learning dialect to communicate effectively in Arab countries, and not relying on MSA. However I find your comment that most Arabs won't understand a foreigner speaking MSA puzzling. The majority of people are exposed to MSA on a daily basis on news channels such as Al-Jazeera, so presuming accent and pronunciation are reasonable, why would a foreigner not be understood speaking in MSA by most Arabs? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Lone_Wolf Groupie United States Joined 5307 days ago 60 posts - 117 votes Speaks: English* | Message 15 of 23 16 June 2012 at 4:25am | IP Logged | |||||
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Hi Stelingo and Thank You for sharing your thoughts with us.
As far as most people not being able to understand a foreigner speaking MSA I should have added the note that it also depends on which country you visit and which region of that particular country you are in. That's why I said that at the very least the popular slogan of "Learning MSA and going ANYWHERE in the Arab world is no problem" is A Pretty gross exaggeration. We have to keep in mind the education and literacy rate of the country in question and the region of that country. I have PERSONALLY witnessed while in Morocco a bunch of us watching the news and someone would not understand what the broadcaster was saying so he would have to ask another to explain to him what was said. If these people cannot understand the MSA of native Arabic speakers, how much worse would it be to try to understand someone who will 9 chances out of ten have an accent and less than perfect pronunciation? Something else that should be mentioned is the other slogan that Arabs from different parts of the world use MSA to communicate. I am not doubting the validity of that possibility but I think the entire story is not being told when this oft repeated phrase pops up. When I was still practicing (and living) what they call Sunni Islam, I was frequenting the Mosque quite often and I have had the chance to not only interact with different Arabs but to watch Arabs interact with one another. One thing I have ALWAYS noticed (and didn't quite understand at that time) was that different groups of Arabs would congregate and associate with those who were from their region of the Arabic speaking world. Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrians would form one clique while Gulf Arabs formed yet another. Although I did see Egyptians forming another clique I also know that they associated with all of the other Arabs and outside of their Egyptian circles, they seemed to fit in quite well with the Arabs of the Levant. And almost NO ONE understood the Moroccans except the Algerians and some Libyans. One of the Libyans that I had befriended informed that it is really difficult for him to understand the Arabic Dialects further east past Egypt. He understood Egyptians, Tunisians and Moroccans. I would guess that he also understood Algerian as well but I have never witnessed any two way communication between him and someone from Algeria. Anyway, I can only speak on what I have personally witnessed and while I'll repeat that I am not arguing against the possibility of two Arabs from two different parts of the Arab world communicating through the use of MSA I am asking how often that happens. Especially when they always say that it's when two "EDUCATED" Arabs from different parts of the Arab world wish to communicate with one another. Also, when repeating this slogan they need to also talk about what the Arabs "REALLY" do when they talk in MSA and that is Code Switching in which they use the barest minimal of MSA that they can and really only resort to MSA lexicon when they have no other alternative for getting their point across and making sure that the person they are talking to understands whatever it is he or she wishes to verbally convey. I think this whole phenomenon of the "Diglossia Arabic" makes for a very interesting topic of discussion. Edit: Something else just crossed my mind concerning the idea of Arabs from far flung regions of the Arab world use MSA to communicate. It has been talked about (and agreed upon) many times on this forum that if a foreigner goes to an Arabic speaking country and speaks using MSA the people will "understand" him but they will respond in dialect which is what they are used to and is a NATURAL way of speaking for them. You MIGHT come across one or two people who may be willing and able to respond in MSA but a handful of people out of millions hardly speaks for the widespread use of MSA in Arabic speaking countries. I think that tidbit of knowledge right there goes against the idea that Arabs use MSA when communicating. Do they do the same thing with one another in which they understand the MSA of another Arab but respond in dialect? Or do they respond in MSA? If they respond and hold a conversation in MSA with each other, why not hold an MSA conversation with a foreigner when he shows his ability and willingness to speak in MSA? If two Arabs understand the MSA of one another but only speak in Colloquial what's the point of having any MSA in the conversation at all or why not speak in pure MSA? I think these kinds of questions will lead us more and more to what I was saying about Arabs code switching by using as much Colloquial as possible and resorting to MSA only when absolutely needed to make sure one has been understood by the other. Sincerest Regards, L.W. Edited by Lone_Wolf on 16 June 2012 at 4:59am 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5833 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 16 of 23 16 June 2012 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I see, so you're saying many Arabs have difficulty following a news broadcast in MSA, so by extention they would find it difficult to understand a foreigner speaking MSA? This is the first time I have heard this view point expressed on this forum. Edited by stelingo on 16 June 2012 at 2:01pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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