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Egyptian Arabic after Pimsleur | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Lone_Wolf Groupie United States Joined 5311 days ago 60 posts - 117 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 17 of 23 17 June 2012 at 9:04pm | IP Logged |
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Yes, another thing that should be pointed out (which goes against the idea that Arabs speak in MSA to communicate) is the fact that native Arabs are ALWAYS talking about the difficulty of tuning in to another dialect. Again, this is something else that I have witnessed with my own eyes and ears.
The difficulty of tuning in to another dialect and having issues of communication and understanding between Arabs of different location is ONLY AN ISSUE because they are still speaking Colloquial/Dialect and NOT MSA. If they were able to speak in MSA they would just do so and not try to communicate in Colloquial Arabic and speak on the issue of communication difficulties. In fact, I am willing to go so far as to say that the issue of communication difficulties wouldn't even come up if they were speaking to one another in MSA. Just an after thought that I thought I'd point out. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7149 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 18 of 23 17 June 2012 at 9:45pm | IP Logged |
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Not having more than a VERY rudimentary knowledge of Arabic myself, and never having traveled in Arabic countries, I can't comment on the topic being discussed. But I thought the following comments on MSA versus colloquial might be of interest to people studying Arabic, or considering doing so. They derive from the forum on "a certain site in Uzbekistan" and were written by a former participant there (BinMashish) who has considerable experience in both academic study of Arabic and in traveling in the Arab world. I always find his comments insightful. They're only one's man view, of course, but I suspect they're pretty accurate. Of particular relevance to the current thread, I think, are his comments on the differences in use and understanding of MSA from country to country.
------------------------------------------------ The only country in which all subjects including medicine and engineering are taught consistently in Arabic only and not in colonial languages is Syria. I've noticed that a lot of learners who go to Syria for a year gain much better mastery of MSA than those who go elsewhere. In contrast, Lebanon, with all of its wonderful bookstores, is not a good place to learn Arabic these days. You can live and die in Beyrut without knowing any Arabic. But in Syria, even people from humble circumstances speak good MSA and can read classical texts on the spot. This makes for more linguistic awareness, which is always a good thing. So, only in Syria (and perhaps to some extent in Iraq pre-war, or in Saudi for different reasons) is there a widespread lucid understanding about standard vs. dialect. In other parts of the Arab world, differences between MSA and the dialect are becoming blurry. One reason for this: A lot of upper class people in Arabic-speaking countries are very insecure about MSA and more at ease speaking English (or French). Most of them don't see a good foundation in Arabic as prestigious or relevant at all, and many will even speak English with their children! One example is the current king of Jordan, whose formal Arabic was quite bad when he made his first public appearances. Now he's improved his act, but this is just one person. Another famous figure whose formal Arabic, surprisingly, was not very good was Edward Said. The implications of this are far-reaching and they severely impact the preservation of the rich classical heritage, which is becoming neglected by schools, especially the non-religious literature. A lot of classical literature is about sex and real life of upper classes, which makes uptight readers uncomfortable (hence, a huge part of the classical literature is banned in Saudi Arabia). Many schools for the poor only teach the Qur'an and the Hadith when it comes to the older literary tradition, making the young generations insecure about writing Arabic in general. A particularly disturbing anecdote was told by an acquaintance of mine, who spent a summer in Malta taking some classes. There were a lot of other Arabic speakers around, but speakers of different dialects (sociologically, upper and upper-middle class) did not know how to communicate with each other. Instead of using a modified Egyptian-Levantine combination, familiar to all of them from movies, or a modified standard Arabic (those are two historical possibilities always practiced before the colonial period), they all spoke English with each other. She herself felt slightly ashamed as she was telling me this. A big problem is also the internet: this is where the linguistic insecurities of many people really come to light, and many prefer writing a cliched mixture of English and colloquial. Moroccans and Algerians especially are more comfortable writing French anyway. Now to dialects: I usually speak a modified MSA, adopting the most egregious forms from the dialect (when in Egypt, I will say dilwati, hanshuf etc). Usually that goes over quite well and it is the expected linguistic form from a foreigner anyway. But my long term goal is to learn a couple of dialects really well so that I can use all the linguistic registers. Be aware, however, of this problem: dialect usage will open the hearts of the rural and the poor, but many middle-class people will actually respect you less if you use a lot of dialect! They will often think that you DON'T know MSA, that you're just fooling around, that you're unsophisticated... This attitude is paradoxical, but it reflects their own fears about being recognized as rural, uneducated, etc. Yet there is also certain pride taken in dialect, especially in Egypt and Morocco. As you probably know, in Egypt there are also more attempts to use the dialect in the written form than elsewhere (with historical precedents, but especially mid-century). This has earned the Egyptians some mockery and a cliche that most of them can't speak MSA, which is unfair and only partially justified. I find the developments of the 20th c. exciting, but I also hope that MSA is not lost in the process. I would like Egypt to once again develop a rich literary scene, as in the 1950s, but with more creativity concerning the dialect as well. There is tremendous potential for linguistic and artistic expression in Morocco with the three major varieties of Berber, the Moroccan darija, MSA...but in many bookstores, you will only find books in French. This is saddening. I've noticed that my understanding particularly of North African Arabic varies tremendously, and I was relieved when on one occasion, traveling in rural Tunisia, urban Tunisians also had difficulties understanding some local speakers. Yet, some elderly people whom I met in Morocco and who went on the hajj told me that after a while it was becoming easy for them to communicate with Saudi Arabic speakers even though their MSA was not good. I also find that the longer I study Arabic, the more I perceive the similarities between dialects and a certain internal logic which they share comes to fore. ADD: The situation concerning the teaching of dialects outside of the Arab world is pretty horrible. There are very few schools even teaching the basics of any dialect, let alone more advanced levels. In the US, 99% of all classes are MSA. In Germany, France and the UK, there are a few schools which offer dialect classes, but not on a completely regular basis. The unfortunate presupposition is that once you're in the Arab world, you'll just soak it in. In the Arab world itself, the situation is better. AUC and AUB offer dialect classes. It is also possible to study the dialects in Morocco and Syria. But often those classes are too expensive and too basic. ADD 2: I forgot to mention that many Palestinians also have a sophisticated level of understanding of different registers of Arabic. This comes from a heightened sense of urgency in preserving their folklore. Many Palestinians in the diaspora are also exposed to different kinds of Arabic (Gulf, Tunisia, Egypt) which makes them quicker to switch between them than other Arabic speakers. Also, I think it is helpful linguistically for many of them to know Hebrew, which exposes them to thinking about Semitic languages as a group. ADD 3: Few people know about this, but Yemen is a fantastic area linguistically, with many different local dialects. I assume that the knowledge of MSA must be good there. I can't wait to travel there and would be happy even to live there for a while. 9 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4643 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Guarani*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 19 of 23 17 June 2012 at 10:34pm | IP Logged |
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@Daristani: Brilliant, I must say that I agree with virtually everything that individual stated, thanks for bringing it to the discussion. :)
Indeed, the Standard Arabic-Colloquial Arabic situation is very interesting to explore, and I think it is one of the reasons I decided to study Arabic even when I had initially felt intimidated by the different dialects. As for the Arab understanding of MSA, it most definitely varies from country to country, as I think was discussed a little in "Mutual Intelligibility of Moroccan Arabic" and several other threads that I've looked at regarding Arabic. In some countries, such as Syria, Tunisia, and Oman, I found that many people would be willing to speak MSA without much flinching. In many other countries, however, it was usually mixed reactions. Most would be glad to know that I had a good command of MSA, but didn't feel comfortable speaking it themselves, or spoke it well enough but felt better using their dialect. In most of my experiences, however, Arabs would understand MSA being spoken on a news broadcast or other formal speaking event. However, there were a few, particularly those who lived in more rural areas or had little access to modern media that more trouble with it. As for how Arabs "tune in" to other dialects, the case is obviously going to vary as well. An Arab from Iraq could visit Morocco for a year, just casually hear Moroccan dialect, and not get very far at understanding at all. Granted, the Iraqi and Moroccans would typically find common ground, but if that Iraqi was just to listen to Moroccan as the Moroccans spoke to each other, it would require serious studying on his or her part. If it was between an Iraqi and a Kuwaiti, or an Iraqi and a Syrian or Jordanian, the situation would be much smoother. As for the situation of Arabic vs. French and English, it is sadly true. In the Maghreb, French still dominates business, and in the Gulf states, English is preferred for international business. When it comes to a Syrian wanting to speak to a Moroccan, they will indeed sometimes decide to use English or French if they don't feel like finding a "middle ground" in Arabic. As for Yemen, I've only had two months of experience. Yemeni, in general, seems to be unique in that it is harder for most other Middle Easterners to understand than the other dialects. It, as other dialects, preserves several features of MSA while also adopting some of its own. However, Yemen is indeed one of the poorest countries in the region, and literacy wasn't particularly high or anything. Most worked with me in MSA, but there were a few that insisted on trying Yemeni or another dialect. I still believe that MSA is a great starting point, if one is interested in exploring several dialects. But honestly, if there were as many (and as reliable) resources on the Arabic dialects as there are for MSA, then it probably wouldn't matter as much, because despite the huge differences, there is enough in common between the different varieties and MSA that acquisition would be smooth. However, with resources for dialects barely showing up (mainly for Egyptian and Levantine), there's only so far that one can get in a dialect before having to be much more creative. I also agree about the way Arabic is taught at most western schools. It's an MSA focus for a few years, and then a smattering of dialect at the end to "supplement" the student's knowledge of the language. That, or there's no dialect instruction at all. This does seem to be beginning to change, however. More schools seem to be offering full courses - across all levels (beginner, intermediate, and some advanced) - in some dialects as well. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Lone_Wolf Groupie United States Joined 5311 days ago 60 posts - 117 votes Speaks: English* | Message 20 of 23 17 June 2012 at 11:38pm | IP Logged |
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Hey guys,
This is an interesting thread and the topic of Arabic is indeed a fascinating one to me. Especially lately. I remember the first time that I had went to Morocco I'd met a young man from Syria who had moved to Morocco (the particular city was Rabat). I don't know the reason that he had migrated to Morocco but I do remember him telling me the difficulties he was having with adjusting to Darija and that he often had to use French as a middle ground. But I also remember that he said that he had gotten better at that point in adjusting to the local vernacular. He had been there for about 6 months by the time he and I had met. I also have a friend from Iraq whom I haven't seen in quite a while now who used to hang out with me and my Moroccan friends. I don't want to call him uneducated or speak lowly of his literacy but he himself admitted one time that his knowledge of MSA was almost non existent. I know he is also able to converse in Egyptian Dialect so I am only assuming that this is the middle ground that was used when he would come and hang out. Something that I want to mention is that the Moroccan people seem to have a special talent when it comes to languages. I have a really, really good friend who is fluent in Darija, Egyptian, MSA, French, Russian and English. Yeah, he's a beast and I've noticed that about a lot of Moroccans that I have met here in the U.S. Edited by Lone_Wolf on 17 June 2012 at 11:39pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4643 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Guarani*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 21 of 23 18 June 2012 at 6:27pm | IP Logged |
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^I have a few Iraqi friends who actually have a pretty good understanding of MSA, but it isn't surprising that there are some who may not. I also agree about Moroccans. They seem to be very good at maneuvering to different languages and dialects and adjusting to them as well, probably due to the fact that Morocco has a particular linguistic diversity.
In my experience, the Arabs with the least strong command of MSA are the Arab-Americans I've met. One of my friends could speak very well the Jordanian dialect of his parents, but he only knew how to write his name. For a better example, sometimes Arab-Americans have more trouble than they initially thought they would when they decide to embark on learning MSA. They think that they'll just be able to "pick it up" when in reality there are some features that may have been simplified, virtually omitted, or even made more complex in their native dialect. Sure, Arabs in the Arab countries sometime have trouble as well, but this seems to hold particularly true with many who were born in English-speaking countries. I have a few Sudanese friends who have a varying command of MSA (some know it very well, others struggle), and understand Levantine, Hijazi, and to an great extent, Gulf as well. Egyptian, they say, is their strongest dialect, since the dialects have a lot in common. When my Egyptian friends come along, they don't really modify their speech at all and they can carry on a very lively conversation. Even I have little trouble understanding their Sudanese dialect, despite the fact that I've never studied it. Indeed, it's an interesting linguistic situation. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Przemek Hexaglot Senior Member Poland multigato.blogspot.c Joined 6480 days ago 107 posts - 174 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, SpanishC2, Italian, Portuguese, French Studies: Turkish, Hindi, Arabic (Written) | Message 22 of 23 26 June 2012 at 1:40pm | IP Logged |
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I don't have much to say about my experiences, but I'd like to thank you all for these
very extensive explanations. I'm interested in Egyptian dialect, I've already gone through Pimsleur Course and Colloquial Arabic of Egypt. Like many others I'm not sure which book/course I should take to go further. At the moment I switched to MSA. The reason: I want to be able to read some things in papers and to watch Arabic TV channels, e.g. Al Jazeera. But my priority remains Egyptian. The reasons presented by Lone Wolf reinforced my conviction to focus on the dialect (after I have done "Teach Yourself Arabic" to get the grisp of MSA). Once again thank you for this constructive and very very interesting discussion. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Mulliman Diglot Newbie Sweden Joined 4725 days ago 7 posts - 13 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Arabic (Egyptian) | Message 23 of 23 19 July 2012 at 2:39pm | IP Logged |
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When I think of the diglossia situation with Arabic, I compare it with my own
experience as a Swede, communicating with other Scandinavians. Since I live in the south of Sweden, I often come in contact with Danish people. The same kind of situation occurs, I am guessing, as when Arabs from different dialects meet and communicate. In this case, Swedish could be the Egyptian dialect, while Danish is more like Khaliji (or Morroccan :P ) and Norwegian is Levantese. Usually, Norwegians and Danes will understand the language of the Swedes, while it is often very hard to understand spoken Danish due to pronunciation differences and Norwegian will be easy to understand after a little practice (well, some dialects are harder to understand than Danish to be frank). Basically what happens, is that you slow down your speech and remove the most slang parts of your vocabulary. In many cases, Danes adjust their pronunciation and word usage to something that is more similar to Swedish or Norwegian. When all else fails, and this really depends on the speech patterns of the individuals, you switch to English (the equivalence of lingua franca MSA). But I think it depends alot on how different individuals are able to communicate, or modify their own speech. For example, I had a Danish friend I used to hang out with on a daily basis. Our conversations always started with simplified Danish-Swedish, but she always reverted back to native Danish when our communication picked up speed. Every single time, we switched to English instead, since it was so hard for me to follow her. However, another Danish friend of mine is able to communicate without switching to English. So Im guessing the same situation exists with Arabic. Or Dutch-German, different English accents, Spanish dialects and so on and so forth. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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