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Romance languages and "may/can" | ||
Tags: Romance Languages | Syntax | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 1 of 11 12 July 2012 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | ||
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Do romance languages make a distinction between ability and permission? More importantly, does it ever materially matter?
As a Spanish speaker and an increasingly fluent French speaker, it seems they do not. "Yo puedo abrir la puerta" / "Je peux ouvrir la porte" To me, they can both mean "I can open the door" AND "I may open the door". But notice English makes a distinction via the modal. However, "can" overlaps "may" for permission, and often does to the point that to make a true distinction English may require to use the "long" modal "I am allowed to open the door", to differenciate. German: "Ich kann die Tür aufmachen" / "Ich darf die Tür aufmachen" is the same distinction as English with the caveat German seems to preserve the distinction more than English, from my (still limited) exposure to the language compared to native. And in German the modals are not defective thus no "long" versions are required. So the question to natives of these and other languages: does this distinction matter in your speech? I guess, when I really think about it, I could say in Spanish: "Me dejan abrir la puerta" or in English, beside "I am allowed to open the door" ... "They let/allow me to open the door". This makes it clear that I imply permission and not ability. The Spanish construction appears to me as part of this "inderect object" usage that Spanish is famous for, but since I have not grammatically studied this in depth, I'm not able to describe it in function that well, I just know it. Since French as far as I know doesn't have this construction, the only thing I can think of saying to emphasize permission over ability is: "Ils me laissent ouvrir la porte." All this may be an exercise in nerdness, but I'm curious if anyone has thought of it or has insight not present here. :) Edited by outcast on 12 July 2012 at 7:49pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| vermillon Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4679 days ago 602 posts - 1042 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC2, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, German | Message 2 of 11 12 July 2012 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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In French, we can say "j'ai le droit d'ouvrir la porte", and it means the same as "I am allowed to open the door".
I would say that in most cases context makes it clear, and that if there's no distinction in French, then probably it's not essential to us. :) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Sprachgenie Decaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5710 days ago 128 posts - 165 votes Speaks: German*, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Faroese, Icelandic, Flemish, Persian, Swiss-German Studies: English, Belarusian | Message 3 of 11 12 July 2012 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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Although German does have the words können (can) and dürfen (may), können is quite often used incorrectly in place of dürfen (even by academics and top-level managers of companies). Germans tend not to emphasize this difference as much as English speakers do. In my experience, it would be quite rare to hear an educated American use "can" incorrectly.
2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| GRagazzo Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4962 days ago 115 posts - 168 votes Speaks: Italian, English* Studies: Spanish, Swedish, French | Message 4 of 11 12 July 2012 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | ||
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In Italian you can say 'Posso' for can/may I.
for example in a restaurant before the waiter takes your plate he will ask, 'Posso?'. Which means may I? You can also use the conditional if you want to be very polite. Example: posso avere del te? Can I have some tea? potrei avere del te? Can I have some tea? (but more polite) Edited by GRagazzo on 12 July 2012 at 9:46pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4845 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 5 of 11 12 July 2012 at 11:27pm | IP Logged | ||
Why is the use of 'können' instead of 'dürfen' incorrect? There just isn't the same distinction as in English, that's all. "Kann ich ein Fenster aufmachen?" is exactly the same as "Darf ich ein Fenster aufmachen?", there is no incorrectness at all. It's the first time that I hear of this being incorrect. Moreover, "dürfen" has a stronger association of "being allowed to do something" than English "may". You can say "May I go?" as well as "Can I go?", in German both are represented by "Kann ich gehen?". If you ask: "Darf ich gehen?", it sounds like "Am I allowed to go?". So, "can/may" is represented by "können", while "may/be allowed" is represented by "dürfen". It's just different from English. Edited by Josquin on 12 July 2012 at 11:36pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5274 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 6 of 11 13 July 2012 at 6:19am | IP Logged | ||
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To add to the discussion in a tangential way, Slavic languages have two verbs for can, which have distinct meanings:
mochi means to be able to in the circumstantial sense, which is more objective and depends on circumstances umeti means to be able to in the capacitative sense, which is more subjective and less dependent on circumstances I can climb the tree - mogu popeti drvo I can sing - umem pevati Mochi also has the sense of "may" in certain sentences. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 7 of 11 13 July 2012 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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In Brazilian Portuguese:
Você pode me ajudar? = Can you help me? Dá pra você me ajudar? = Is it possible for you to help me? So, in this situation both are interchangeable. PODER = CAN or BE ALLOWED/MAY or BE ABLE TO (it can be both intrinsic and extrinsic) DAR PARA means CAN, but does not normally mean BE ABLE TO (it's always extrinsic) So, POSSO ENTRAR? would mean MAY I ENTER? while DÁ PRA (EU) ENTRAR would mean Is it possible [for me] to enter? [não dá para entrar no MSN = I can't connect to MSN). --- -How can I reach the beach?- more often than not it's translated Como eu faço para chegar à/na praia? [how do I make it to reach the beach]... -Como posso chegar à/na praia?- (literal translation of How can I reach the beach?) would mean ...in which way can I reach the beach by taking a taxi or a bus, on foot.... ''How can I spit on the grave? '' in English this is the option for both 1. Como eu faço para cuspir na sepultura? (=I want to spit on the grave, I want to know how it's done) 2. Como eu posso cuspir na sepultura? (=How dare I?; one should not spit on the grave). So, in PORTUGUESE, English HOW CAN I +verb can be translated with Como eu posso+verb, Dá para eu+verb, como eu faço para (+verb)...3 different meanings So, while the difference between MAY and CAN is blurred, some new fine differences in meaning are introduced* Posso entrar? = Can/may I enter? Dá para você repetir? / Você pode repetir? = Can you repeat (it)? Não dá para sair. Está chovendo. = One/We/You/I can't go out. It's raining. Você não pode sair. Está chovendo. You can't/You shouldn't go out. It's raining. Como você pode fazer isso a mim? = How can you do this to me? Como eu faço para desinstalar o programa? = How can I uninstall the program? What is the way to uninstall this program? *** --- Not to mention the fact that in English CAN can mean both ability and possibility. SEI NADAR. = I know how to swim / I can swim. / I am able to swim. I am capable of swimming POSSO NADAR. = I can/may swim. I am able to swim. ME DEIXAM NADAR. = I'm allowed to swim. (literally: They let me swim). DÁ PARA EU NADAR. = I can /could /it's possible or okay for me to swim. Como eu faço para nadar? = How can I swim? How do I swim? How it's the act of swimming done? I want to know (or I want to learn). Como você pode nadar tão longe, não tem medo de tubarão não? =How can/dare you swim so far, aren't you afraid of sharks? Edited by Medulin on 13 July 2012 at 4:45pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Rykketid Diglot Groupie Italy Joined 4834 days ago 88 posts - 146 votes Speaks: Italian*, English Studies: French | Message 8 of 11 13 July 2012 at 6:48pm | IP Logged | ||
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In Italian ability is expressed by the verb "riuscire", whereas permission is expressed
by the verb "potere" which means "can" when it is in the indicative form and "could/may/might" when it is in the conditional form. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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