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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Homogenik Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4825 days ago 314 posts - 407 votes  Speaks: French*, English Studies: Polish, Mandarin | Message 41 of 56 03 July 2012 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
Every child in Quebec is taught straight french at school, it's a necessity. The variations are learned in their real lives which gives them a double hand, so to speak. In theory, Quebecois can play on both levels, standard french (especially in writing) and québécois (especially in oral communication). In practice however and in my opinion, the knowledge of french is rather poor in the general population and it is poorly taught (it is also less and less valued socially). Of course I may not be the best to know this but I do work for the Ministry of Education (I correct the final french composition exams of last year high schoolers and it's quite appalling). All this to say that I agree there would be no point in a manual for teaching Quebec french to a learner with no previous knowledge of french. There are resources to add the Quebec particularities (and there are many) after knowledge of standard french has been acquired (at least partially). For instance that little Assimil book and of course the rich cultural production from Quebec (whether films or novels). Maybe there could be a text book that would show both levels of the language at the same time, sort of like you can learn both the classical and simplified characters when learning chinese, but I don't see this happening as very few foreigners would care to opt for such a method. As for french declining in Quebec, that's what's been reported. French speaking Quebecois represent 19,5% of the Canadian population and almost every region of the province featured more than 80 or even more than 90 % or french speaking (speaking french at home) people except Laval (67%) and Montreal (52%). In Montreal, 51% of immigrants choose french as a second language and 49% English which is completely disproportionate considering the french speaking majority of the province (thus it contributes to the decline). According to the Quebec Office of French Language, in 2031, only 50% of Montrealers will speak french at home. English universities are doing much better than the french ones which are much less prestigious. And so on...
That's actually quite accurate. Historically, Quebec has been a colony and has been under the control of the British and then English canadian governments and both tried to diminish the québécois characteristics, be it language, religion, or generally any french way of life. Any well-paid job until de 60s were English speaking (that means that most dealings and administration of the province was actually done in English). So the people in Quebec have had a long time to cultivate a feeling of inadequacy. As Lord Durham famously said, the French Canadians were a "people without history or literature". That was not true of course, but it's certainly less true now. The inferiority complex of Québécois is well known and often mentioned. Sure the National Celebration is a popular event and that's great, but the truth is it's mostly a big drunkard party for 17 year olds (I may be exaggerating a little). It seems more desperate than nationalist (the "nationalist" sentiment has constantly been decreasing over the last years). But in my opinion Québécois carry this feeling of inadequacy whether they know it or not, and it sometimes shows up in defensive reactions that can be embarrassing to witness. This negative sentiment, I think, is at the source of many of the xenophobic reactions from some people here. I don't believe Québécois are as open as they like to say they are, that may be why around 70% of french immigrants return to France after 15 years. I have many immigrant friends from various countries and have even overheard immigrants in public talking about how Québécois are nice but distant, and I generally agree with this. I don'T want to turn this into a psychoanalytic debate, but I think if Quebec had a better sense of self-worth, it would be more open, less defensive, etc. The language is full of expressions to name this inferiority, the most famous being être né pour un petit pain (to be born for a small bread, meaning : to exist for no important reason). Also, Québécois have a tendency to speak in litotes or understatements. For instance, we'll say : she's not bad (instead of she looks great!), this doesn't taste bad (instead of this tastes good!), he's not mean (instead of he's a good person!), that's not bad/c'est pas pire/c'est pas si pire (instead of that's great!), and so on. If you invite a Québécois for diner or something, he may answer : ça m'dérange pas (it doesn't bother me) instead of yes, I would be pleased. Instead of responding yes please to an offer, he may say : je te dirais pas non (I wouldn't tell you no). Instead of ça vaut le coup (it's worth it), Québécois say ça vaut la peine (it's worth... the pain). He will say I need to LOOK FOR a new apartment/job, while a French man may say I need to FIND a new... Instead of saying tout va bien (it's going well), the Québécois will say il n'y a pas de problème (there's no problem). For an interesting read (in french) on the origins of this : http://www.kinegomoh.com/originecomplexe.pdf For (harsh but sincere) comments from french immigrants on Quebec : http://www.immigrer-contact.com/main.phpaction=forum&option= lire_bof&mpseudo=veritas&mid=608&pays= can&theme=ret&t=On_vous_aura_pr%E9venu! Edited by Homogenik on 04 July 2012 at 3:51pm 8 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 42 of 56 06 July 2012 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Dziękuję za interesujący komentarz, Homogenik.
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| Homogenik Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4825 days ago 314 posts - 407 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Polish, Mandarin | Message 43 of 56 06 July 2012 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Nie ma za co!
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| 201128114 Triglot Newbie Canada https://learniceland Joined 4758 days ago 6 posts - 14 votes Speaks: French*, English, Icelandic Studies: German, Spanish | Message 44 of 56 07 July 2012 at 3:22am | IP Logged | |||||
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Concerning the comments by the french immigrants on their immigration experience in Quebec, I think this
quote is more than enough to illustrate the ethno-centric and condescending attitude of these particular individuals: "Et si vous n'êtes pas prêt à massacrer votre grammaire et a sortir quelques "québécismes" régulièrement avec le "bon accent", vous allez souffrir! Oui les québécois détestent les français. On me le fait sentir régulièrement (toujours par derrière!) malgré mon intégration sociale parfaite." Rough translation: "And if you are not ready to massacre your grammar (...) you will suffer! Yes, Quebecers hate French people. They make me feel their hatred regularly (always behind my back!) in spite of my perfect social integration." (!) This is crazy! I have lived in Quebec for most of my life and I could never see how one could describe my society as xenophobic or close minded. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Avid Learner Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4663 days ago 100 posts - 156 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: German | Message 45 of 56 08 July 2012 at 10:18am | IP Logged | |||||
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Okay, I could write a lot myself from an historical or political perspective, but I'd rather not get into that. I
do have to say that I don't think of Quebec French to be inferior. I used to think somehow that we'd replace "il" by "y" and "elle" by "a" in colloquial speech out of laziness or something like that. It also sounded like to say "y fait frette" instead of "il fait froid" was a distortion of proper French. However, unless my sources are wrong - and I don't think it's the case, the examples I gave were actually how French used to be pronounced even in France. The French spoken here used to be considered excellent, if not "pure" at the time there were still ties with France. Then the ties were lost and apparently the French revolution led to a shift in pronounciation. Obviously, the French speakers on the other side of the Atlantic couldn't follow, and apparently that's when Canada French started to be seen as strange. I certainly don't mind the shift from 'è' to 'oi', but I really don't think of the remnents from the old standard still left in colloquial speech to be anything to be ashamed of, and in fact since I understand better where that comes from, it just feels great to use them on purpose once in a while to emphasize what I'm saying ("Y fait frette" meaning that it's very, very cold!). I think if I happened to live in a European French country and I felt like saying something like that, I might even go for it once in a while just for fun. I think it's quite cool that some older features and expressions have been preserved and no, I don't feel it makes Quebec French inferior. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| lecavaleur Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4778 days ago 146 posts - 295 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish | Message 46 of 56 08 July 2012 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
No offence, but unless you are an adult immigrant to Quebec, especially French or French-speaking, you're not really in a position to judge these people's reaction to their new home and the people that live here. This attitude is common among French-speaking immigrants to Quebec. Despite their efforts, many do not succeed in their "insertion sociale", and they run in social circles made up of almost entirely of other immigrants. As a French-speaking immigrant with a European accent who has lived his entire adult life in Quebec, I have found that far too many native Quebeckers have an innate aversion to and maybe an ax to grind against the accent and expressions typically associated with France. Many of them actually expect you to adopt the Quebec accent, which is the most ridiculous expectation ever and could only be made by someone who has never lived outside his own country. You can't just change your accent the way you change your socks. Among all my many friends, I can count relatively few "Québécois de souche", and the ones I can count as friends have all lived abroad themselves and tend to be xenophiles. Otherwise, basically all my friends and friendly acquaintances are either immigrants themselves (French, Maghrébin, African) or are children of immigrants. This experience is common to a majority of other adult immigrants that I have known personally. They get along well with native Quebeckers in all basic social situations but they generally can't seem to build close relationships outside of work/school with real Quebeckers. Despite all that, it doesn't prevent one from identifying with a civic Québécois identity, even if ethnically and dialectically one identifies otherwise. If Québec is going to be the modern, heterogenous society it is destined to become, there is plenty of room for everyone. Eventually, as immigration becomes more and more important, being Québécois will be less and less synonymous with being of French-Canadian descent and more associated with the fact of living in Québec and speaking French, with or without the accent. 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Avid Learner Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4663 days ago 100 posts - 156 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: German | Message 47 of 56 09 July 2012 at 4:40am | IP Logged | |||||
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lecavaleur, I can't say I'm that surprised by what you are saying because I have heard similar stories from French Europeans. I have not heard this widely though, it's more of an anecdotal account here or there.
If that would turned out to be a generalized experience, then I would wonder if it's not simply more difficult perhaps to make new friends here in general (even for the "Québécois de souche"), just because people tend to live their life among the people they already know and won't easily include newcomers. I have heard that as well about us (and about other countries as well). But again, that is not the result of any actual ressearch. It could also be that those people who have lived abroad tend to make friends more easily, because that would sure be a desirable trait of character for anybody who wants to build a new life in a new country. One way or another, I am extremely surprised that anybody here would expect a European to adopt a Quebec accent. I know I certainly wouldn't, I find it to be often very charming and I have always enjoyed the contacts I've had with French Europeans. But unfortunately, I don't doubt there are a fraction of people who can be close minded. I must say that I have also experienced the reverse situation, here: wanting to be friends with people who had immigrated from other countries, and even if they didn't actually exclude me, I could just feel that they felt they had a lot in common, and, sadly, I didn't seem to fit in. Edited by Avid Learner on 09 July 2012 at 4:43am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5263 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 48 of 56 12 July 2012 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I saw this article in the Huffington Post Canada: Bilingual Benefits: Is It Worth The Trouble Of Learning French Anymore?
According to the article, the answer is a resounding YES! The article talks about the need for bilingual federal employees and private sector firms with a need for French speakers. It's an interesting read. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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