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Hurdles to speaking languages fluently | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Old Chemist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5165 days ago 227 posts - 285 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 1 of 42 02 October 2010 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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Although I can speak French, German and Italian and I can also understand some things in several other languages, I find it frustrating that I am not yet fluent in any language other than English. I would like to see posts from both those in my position and those who have achieved fluency in other languages, both to identify what they have found to be hurdles and how they have got over them
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| Hardheim Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5191 days ago 34 posts - 78 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, French | Message 2 of 42 02 October 2010 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't think true fluency can be achieved unless you either live in the country, are married to a native speaker of the language or work in an environment where that language is spoken exclusively. For the average person, fluency requires enormous exposure. I think most people can achieve solid passive fluency (listening and reading) without direct exposure to natives, but speaking would neccesitate more drastic immersion to become solidly fluent. A few naturally gifted people may not require the direct immersion to speak fluently, but for most of us we'll need it.
Using German as an example, Goethe institute recommends in the neighborhood of 800-1000 hours for C1 level, which is solid fluency. Taking 4 semesters of college German gives you about 720 hours if you study 2 hours for every 1 hour in class. 720 hours is pretty close to what Goethe says you need for the C1 level. Seeing the people in 4th semester college German, I would say that they would be hard pressed to pass the B1 test on the spoken part of the test. And these guys get more speaking exposure than most of us; unless you use Pimsleur. For spoken fluency, no program will get you there. You need to put yourself in a position to be interacting at least an hour a day with natives in a varied environmen. For example using Skype etc.., although good, would necessarily limit you to topics that are conducive to phone situations. You wouldn't learn how to become fluent in driving scenarios etc since things like:'take the next left and keep going until you hit Main Street' are unlikely to come up in a phone conversation, but would likely be encountered on a near daily basis if you lived in the country. Once you get past passive fluency, I think real solid spoken fluency (which is what most people mean by fluent)is only possible by naturally working the language with natives on a daily basis. Edited by Hardheim on 02 October 2010 at 10:06pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| BiaHuda Triglot Groupie Vietnam Joined 5355 days ago 97 posts - 127 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Vietnamese Studies: Cantonese | Message 3 of 42 03 October 2010 at 4:54am | IP Logged | ||
Agreed. I learned through immersion. I spent nearly a six months in Vietnam before looking at anything more than a basic phrasebook. I was still learning the language but in a much different way. It turns out that this was good for me. I had little exposure to my native language and was forced to learn. My experience with Spanish was similiar though more work related. My exposure to English was limited to some TV. The learning curve in this situation is enormous. I did get some funny looks on occasion because I was using some words grossly out of context and I didn't realise until much later. I don't think this approach would be practical for most people learning a new language but without doubt the most effective. You also need to avoid the trap of hanging out with expats too much though. They have a tendency to take their lifestyles with them. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gatsby Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6154 days ago 57 posts - 129 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Dutch | Message 4 of 42 03 October 2010 at 7:11am | IP Logged | ||
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I'll have to disagree with the above comments. Apologies in advance for a lengthy post, but I would like to give those without the means to live for an extended period of time in a country of their TL the hope that they can achieve fluency.
My own path began many years ago in university with a professor who was French and who insisted that we only use French at all times. I probably achieved the B1 level through these classes, my limitations being that I didn't have the opportunity to discuss an especially wide range of topics. Most importantly, I learned to think in the language from the beginning. After graduation, I didn’t use the language for around 20 years. At 40, I realized that I still loved the language and wanted to achieve fluency. I proceeded to take two lessons a week from a native speaker during which we focused on reading or listening to a text and then discussing it. This is the first time I was forced to have lengthy one-on-one conversations about a large range of topics. I, of course, also read a lot on my own. At the end of a year, circumstances finally allowed me to take my first trip to France (age 41). I attended an immersion school where we were tested at the beginning in order to make class placements. I was placed in the highest class, for which you had to have basic fluency (B2) in order to participate. None of the students in this class, who were from all over the world, had spent any appreciable periods of time in France before this, just the occasional week or two of vacation (if that). C1 required this class (one month) to really ‘kick-start’ the next step in the process and, upon returning home, many more hours of study/practice and conversations with natives 2-3 times per week. I’m sure others could have reached this level much more quickly. I’m also sure I could have reached it much more quickly with 6 months + in France. But for those who can’t live long-term in a country of their TL, don’t give up your dream of speaking it fluently. With today’s technology (like Skype giving us access to natives, TV5 Monde, etc.), it is not impossible. (I will admit that I don’t feel I can ever reach C2 without an extended stay ‘in-country’, a source of continuing frustration for me). Edited by Gatsby on 03 October 2010 at 7:13am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Old Chemist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5165 days ago 227 posts - 285 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 5 of 42 03 October 2010 at 9:04am | IP Logged | ||
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Thank you, Hardheim and BiaHuda - I agree with you that the ideal thing would be to go and live in the target country and learn by direct immersion or daily prolonged exposure from the natives. Also thank you for quoting the stats - I had a vague awareness of these, but couldn't have discussed it as well as you, Hardheim. However this isn't always even a guarantee of fluency or appropriateness. I heard - from a reliable source - of a Japanese man who someone taught all our choicest swearwords, who then proceeded to use them in ordinary conversation! Also, if you go to the country where your target language is spoken, how do you know what the natives teach you isn't dialect, inappropriate slang or even a personal idiolect?
Thank you, Gatsby, for being more optimistic - this is my aim for the languages I know, that is to achieve C1. Probably for French this is more difficult: the French have a disparaging view of the anglophone speaking French and can be quite exacting in my experience and expect near perfection from most foreigners who speak their language. Also I have encountered overt xenophobia or at least anglophobia. Part of this, a hurdle as I have named it, is the fact that French manners differ substantially from B.E. norms, which can be one of the reasons why a untutored Englishman can be treated with disdain. Without meaning to pre-empt the discussion, I was thinking of such things as finding the time to learn the target language. Often work - for those of us lucky enough to have a job - and ordinary life steal a great amount of the 168 hours a week we have to get on with learning. I have tried walking around with a book in my hands, especially in queues, which does "claw back" some of the time spent in doing tedious things. I have always been considered a little eccentric and am lucky to be from a nation renowned for eccentricity, so the occasional odd look doesn't bother me. Of course there is the more conventional approach of listening to an MP3 player while doing the boring chores. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Old Chemist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5165 days ago 227 posts - 285 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 6 of 42 03 October 2010 at 11:25am | IP Logged | ||
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One of the hurdles, I think is like the old joke about a man who says to another that he is writing a novel. The other man replies: "I'm not either." With all due respect to wannabe novelists, this is something that happens a lot: we talk a great deal about what we are doing, maybe even write about it on forums, but we don't get on with it! This is merely a self-observation, but it probably applies a lot to the contributors of this forum. I am not accusing anyone of procrastination or prevarication, but I think it's natural for people like us, who love languages, to spend a great deal of time talking about them!
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| justberta Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5577 days ago 140 posts - 170 votes Speaks: English, Norwegian* Studies: Indonesian, German, Spanish, Russian | Message 7 of 42 03 October 2010 at 11:58am | IP Logged | ||
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I completely disagree. I have never lived in an English speaking country, been married to
an Englishman or had an English speaking workplace. I don't even have a University or High school education. And yes I am talking about speaking here, not just a passive knowledge. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Old Chemist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5165 days ago 227 posts - 285 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 8 of 42 03 October 2010 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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Which was what I hoped: that there are plenty of people out there who are in your (and my) position of little native speaker contact, but still manage a good standard in our target language(s). What I was meaning to "tease out" was what hurdles we have overcome or are overcoming, to help us all in our learning. It was not my intention to start an argument over immersion vs. learning alone as effective learning strategies.
I wouldn't put yourself down for not having been to university - I have and I have met just as many silly, bigoted and ignorant people there as in "real" life. I felt if anything it confused me. All power to autodidacts! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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