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Hurdles to speaking languages fluently | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| BiaHuda Triglot Groupie Vietnam Joined 5355 days ago 97 posts - 127 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Vietnamese Studies: Cantonese | Message 17 of 42 04 October 2010 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
I would agree with that 100%. There just seems to be alot of debate here about what constitutes fluency etc.. I really didn't make myself very clear I suppose. It is quite possible to arrive in a foreign country and go to work, find a place to live, shop for food etc.. If you can do these things without having to resort to your native language you are fully equiped to get by just fine in that particular society. You may not feel fluent and be frustrated at times, but this misses the point. You would,be fully functional. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5440 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 18 of 42 04 October 2010 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
yes, I know :). I wrote already on that locked topic about fluency that I'm often confused by the "being able to talk about most/all subjects" demand. On one other forum I've seen this topic brought to the extreme when one guy was claiming that no-one is fluent in any language since no-one is able to talk about everything that can be expressed in that language :D.
I wouldn't say you don't feel fluent in such situations, you just feel the lack of knowledge (but not the language knowledge). To say that you don't feel fluent when locals start talking about the childhood TV show seems to me like saying that you don't feel fluent when you listen to the conversation of mechatronics engineers or molecular biologists. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5422 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 19 of 42 04 October 2010 at 10:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Yet another discussion about fluency that ends up going no where. Why?. It's because we can't agree on fluency. Here is the definition of C2 in the CEFR model:
"Can understand with ease virtually everything heard or read. Can summarise information from different spoken and written sources, reconstructing arguments and accounts in a coherent presentation. Can express him/herself spontaneously, very fluently and precisely, differentiating finer shades of meaning even in the most complex situations." I think it's pretty clear. We can quibble about technical vocabulary, cultural knowledge, native-like mastery, etc. but the above definition is relatively clear about a high level of proficiency. Instead of going on and on about what is fluency, why not concentrate on what does it take to arrive at a C2 level of proficiency. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6431 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 20 of 42 04 October 2010 at 11:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
A lot of native speakers are absolutely horrible at summarizing, combining information from different sources, etc. It's also a skill which transfers well across languages; there are exercises in classes aiming for an A1 level which involve doing this with simple material. Similarly, a lot of native speakers really have quite a poor grasp of nuance and routinely express themselves imprecisely. The CEFR is useful, but I find it falls apart a bit at the C2 level. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Old Chemist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5165 days ago 227 posts - 285 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 21 of 42 04 October 2010 at 11:55pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Mmm ... I appreciate all this intelligent material about fluency, but I was hoping to see contributions about what hurdles you had found on the way to whatever degree of fluency you had achieved. Obvious ones are such as commitments in private life, time constraints, personal attitudes to your own ability and other people's attitudes to you. I was trying to glean information about how everyone had coped with such barriers to learning a language. For instance, I feel my family were against me learning altogether, feeling that it would make me snobbish - this is a negative influence on all my learning, which I have struggled against most of my life.
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| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5440 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 22 of 42 05 October 2010 at 12:07am | IP Logged | |||||
I think that C2 description does recognize the problem of technical knowledge and cultural background. I read somewhere (can't remember was it about C2 in general or about DELE C2) a longer description that includes something like 'given that he (the student) is familiar with the subject and with the cultural references' (or 'if the text is not heavily loaded with technical terms and cultural ref.', can't remember exactly). In that case, we can talk about what it takes to get to the C2 level (unfortunately, this does not resolve the problem of fluency, as the topic starter meant it, since people are fluent before they get to C2 - you have to be fluent for C1, as well). I'd say what you need to get to the C2 comprehension is an enormous exposure (a LOT of reading and listening). As for expression, I'm not sure, but given the exam format, it seems to me that you could practise for the exam by doing a lot of monologue exercises (together with a decent amount of conversation exercises, of course). Trying to get your vocabulary to the 'active' side, practising grammar structures etc., in one word: speaking, speaking, speaking. However, I don't think that you have to be in an immersion environment to improve to the C2 level. You could do this exercises, record yourself and ask for feedbacks from your tutors. Given you do this for long time (a year or couple of years, intensively), I can't see why it would be impossible to get to C2 without total immersion. If, however, this 'virtually' in the definition virtually means 'virtually' :), then I rest my case and admit that I'm not fluent even in Serbian (since I can't understand with ease e.g. economics text or conversations) :). 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Hardheim Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5191 days ago 34 posts - 78 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, French | Message 23 of 42 05 October 2010 at 1:27am | IP Logged | |||||
I tend to agree with your definition of fluency here. I would cosider it 'basic', but not solid or advance fluency. I don't think you need to necessarily be able to speak in depth about soccer, economics, religion etc to be considered 'bascially' fluent; or even native for that matter. There are a lot of natives who probably couldn't carry on an in-depth discussion on religion; not familiar with basic terms like salvation, baptism etc..To me fluency is a lowest common denominator kind of thing. What topics can ANY native speak about with fluency and confidence. At this level it boils down to basic living and survival type of speech (said with a native accent and said correctly in a 'street grammar' sort of way. The type of conversations you can get a taste of by reading the dialogues in a "Living Language Basic/Intermediate" course. To this, you would have to add a ton of idioms since I believe most natives, regardless how basic their lifestyle would be aware of a farily large quantity of them. I've actually thought about carring around a pocket recorder for a week and hitting record any time I speak or am spoken to in 'non-work' situations. This would probably be a fairly representative list of conversation needed for 'base' fluency. It boils down to the old 80-20 rule. 20% of the phrases are probably employed 80% of the time in base conversation. Learn these phrases and how to respond to them and you should have 'base' fluency. Edited by Hardheim on 05 October 2010 at 1:28am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5440 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 24 of 42 05 October 2010 at 1:58am | IP Logged | |||||
The only problem I see with what you are saying is that this 'advance fluency' is leaning towards 'being able to talk about absolutely any topic that could possibly be expressed in a language'. I honestly think that this is a bit unrealistic, native speakers included :). Unless by 'being able to talk' someone means 'being able to say "sorry, I've no idea what you are talking about, could you explain it in a simpler way?" ' :). For example, I'd say that someone is at the advanced fluency if they can ask "Could you explain what 'baptism' is?", then understand the explanation that a native (non-familiar with the 'baptism') would understand as well, and then carry on a discussion that includes complex, abstract concepts... I like the definition of basic fluency as a lowest common denominator, but I still think that one can get to the advance fluency without living in a total immersion. One can learn to express complex concepts, it is just a matter of motivation and interests. But we all know that language learning (native language included) is a life long process, so I'm by no means saying that one can get to some level after which there would be no further improvement in a total immersion. However, I don't agree that advance fluency requires immersion. My opinion is that it mostly requires motivation and determination (and money, of course). 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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