Rolling the French R? (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Rolling the French R?
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30 messages over 4 pages: 1 2 3 4 Next >>

liammcg
Senior Member
Ireland
Joined 4605 days ago
269 posts - 397 votes

Speaks: English*

Message 17 of 30

27 May 2012 at 12:08pm | IP Logged

Thanks for all your help, I'll focus on the French R for the next few weeks using your
suggestions.
1 person has voted this message useful

JujuLeCaribou
Diglot
Newbie
Thailand
myonlinefrencht
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Speaks: French*, English
Studies: Portuguese, Thai, German, Dutch

Message 18 of 30

27 May 2012 at 12:35pm | IP Logged

COF wrote:

Yes, and they're looked down on by many Parisians as backward, rural and
peasant-like as a result. Many people who usually roll the R in their dialect have a
tendency to adopt a gutteral R if they move to Paris, to avoid discrimination or
ridicule.

Many people ?
I've been living in the suburbs of Paris for more than 25 years : I have no
recollection of a single person from the other regions of France changing his accent to
avoid "discrimination or ridicule".
If they change their accent, it is only because they spend a long time in the Parisian
region.

If I understand you correctly, a man/woman coming from the Province (like my mom, who
is from the South of France) would encounter difficulties to find a job or make friends
in Paris ? This is ......... ridiculous ! ;-)

Edited by JujuLeCaribou on 27 May 2012 at 1:56pm
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lecavaleur
Diglot
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Canada
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Speaks: English*, French
Studies: German, Spanish

Message 19 of 30

05 June 2012 at 7:36am | IP Logged

In Québec, the alveolar trilled R was once the prominent pronunciation and was even
esteemed as the most prestigious way for a Canadien-Français to pronounce his
R's. In the early days of Radio-Canada, one heard both journalists and guests on the
radio use this pronunciation.

However, sometime around the end of WW2 I believe, this changed. Radio-Canada's new
television service and also its old radio service switched to the uvular R and the
journalists started to imitate their European counterparts. This continued for a very
long time. Today, very few if any people on TV fully imitate the European accent, but
the uvular R has stayed and it has become the most common pronunciation in use in
Québec and basically the only pronunciation used by people under 40. Older people are
MUCH more likely to roll their R's. It is very common among retirees.

But if someone younger than 40 rolls his R's, it's a dead giveaway that he's from
somewhere else. It has just fallen out of fashion.

Edited by lecavaleur on 05 June 2012 at 7:37am
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murphykieran
Newbie
Ireland
naturalfrench.net
Joined 4559 days ago
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Speaks: English*

Message 20 of 30

13 June 2012 at 9:20pm | IP Logged

Just wondering if anyone else here has been able to do the French R even though having a
speech impediment? Like it took me 12 years to even to say r-oll instead of w-oll so
should I be too pushed if I can't do the French R?
1 person has voted this message useful

jdmoncada
Tetraglot
Senior Member
United States
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Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Finnish
Studies: Russian, Japanese

Message 21 of 30

13 June 2012 at 9:36pm | IP Logged

murphykieran wrote:

It's a different R entirely than the English R which could make roll/woll. So I do not believe it will lead you to problems.

And a general comment to all:
I found this video of demonstrating the uvular R quote good. I was able to imitate the teacher within minutes, and now my mistakes with this sound are infrequent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsErE00ItH0
4 persons have voted this message useful

tastyonions
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Speaks: English*, French, Spanish
Studies: Italian

Message 22 of 30

14 June 2012 at 5:05am | IP Logged

jdmoncada wrote:

I found this video of demonstrating the uvular R quote good. I was able to imitate the teacher within minutes, and now my mistakes with this sound are infrequent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsErE00ItH0

Her videos are great! I think I watched pretty much all of them when I first started learning French.
2 persons have voted this message useful

Arekkusu
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Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
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Message 23 of 30

14 June 2012 at 4:08pm | IP Logged

lecavaleur wrote:

I think this is pretty accurate, but I'd push the age threshold a little further back into the late 40's or 50's even. I'm in my late 30's and none of my friend rolled their R's. However, most of my aunts and uncles do, some of them going back and forth between alveolar and uvular R depending on the position in the word.

Oddly, I have 2 cousins who are probably 40ish and who do roll their R's but they grew up in the countryside, on a farm. They are both highly educated, so it sounds really odd to hear them roll their r's. I do think most people consider that it sounds uneducated, but I also doubt it affects anyone -- a lot of highly regarded people roll their r's without any repercussion -- listen to Hubert Reeves for instance.In this video on French TV, even though his vowels are clearly European (most of the time), his R's and affricates (ts and dz) remain québécois.

I no longer live in Québec, and I'd venture that in Canada outside of Québec, there is much more variety as to the types of R's you hear, but I'd suggest that there is probably a generation's delay in the adoption of the uvular r.

Few people realize that the uvular R is a fairly recent phenomenon that spread across languages through the mid 1800's -- across French, German, Dutch, Danish... In fact, the existence of pairs of words like chaire and chaise points to people having a difficult time adapting to this new way of speaking (some would replace r with z).

Edited by Arekkusu on 14 June 2012 at 4:13pm
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lecavaleur
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 4778 days ago
146 posts - 295 votes

Speaks: English*, French
Studies: German, Spanish

Message 24 of 30

15 June 2012 at 5:18am | IP Logged

Arekkusu wrote:

lecavaleur wrote:

In Québec, the alveolar trilled R was once the
prominent pronunciation and was even
esteemed as the most prestigious way for a Canadien-Français to pronounce his
R's. In the early days of Radio-Canada, one heard both journalists and guests on the
radio use this pronunciation.

However, sometime around the end of WW2 I believe, this changed. Radio-Canada's new
television service and also its old radio service switched to the uvular R and the
journalists started to imitate their European counterparts. This continued for a very
long time. Today, very few if any people on TV fully imitate the European accent, but
the uvular R has stayed and it has become the most common pronunciation in use in
Québec and basically the only pronunciation used by people under 40. Older people are
MUCH more likely to roll their R's. It is very common among retirees.

But if someone younger than 40 rolls his R's, it's a dead giveaway that he's from
somewhere else. It has just fallen out of fashion.

I think this is pretty accurate, but I'd push the age threshold a little further back
into the late 40's or 50's even. I'm in my late 30's and none of my friend rolled their
R's. However, most of my aunts and uncles do, some of them going back and forth between
alveolar and uvular R depending on the position in the word.

Oddly, I have 2 cousins who are probably 40ish and who do roll their R's but they grew
up in the countryside, on a farm. They are both highly educated, so it sounds really
odd to hear them roll their r's. I do think most people consider that it sounds
uneducated, but I also doubt it affects anyone -- a lot of highly regarded people roll
their r's without any repercussion -- listen to v=9SDGHn4AdA4">Hubert Reeves for instance.In this
video on French
TV, even though his vowels are clearly European (most of the time), his R's and
affricates (ts and dz) remain québécois.

I no longer live in Québec, and I'd venture that in Canada outside of Québec, there is
much more variety as to the types of R's you hear, but I'd suggest that there is
probably a generation's delay in the adoption of the uvular r.

Few people realize that the uvular R is a fairly recent phenomenon that spread across
languages through the mid 1800's -- across French, German, Dutch, Danish... In fact,
the existence of pairs of words like chaire and chaise points to people having a
difficult time adapting to this new way of speaking (some would replace r with z).

I think a lot of folks in New Brunswick roll their R's. But, as mentioned, here in QC
it is so extinct among young people that hearing someone young roll them is actually
pretty shocking. I experienced this a couple months ago in my faculty library, when a
group of us were discussing something and this young guy most of us had never met piped
up to give his point of view and he rolled his R's very conspicuously, and those of us
who had never met him were pretty taken aback. I was so surprised that I lost my
concentration. I just assumed he was from New Brunswick, but there's no way he's
Québécois. It's just not possible.

Edited by lecavaleur on 15 June 2012 at 5:22am

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