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Translating to Thinking | ||
Tags: Thinking | Translation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| jazzguitar09 Newbie United States Joined 5084 days ago 5 posts - 6 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 9 of 11 29 December 2010 at 3:24pm | IP Logged |
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@davidhowell
I'm glad you mentioned that you have had an experience dreaming in another language, as this has happened to me on a few occasions. I have only been studying German for a semester (albeit, highly intensive) and I find myself dreaming with a German vocabulary, especially after attempting to read in German right before falling asleep. It is quite profound how our brains can play this wonderful trick on us! 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5218 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 10 of 11 02 January 2011 at 9:12pm | IP Logged |
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I don't think you can be sure of how good your languages are in a dream, or that they even exist.
Let's be realistic: when you dream you 'saw' something, you obviously *didn't*, because you were in bed with your eyes closed. When you dream you 'said' something, chances are that you really didn't (not so many people speak while sleeping, and for how long, anyway?). I've dreamed about hundreds of things that are impossible of simply didn't happen. So, when you dreamed that you spoke, understood language X, or even that you just wrote 'word X (which you DO know) in RED BIG LETTERS', I'm sure you did... in your head :) --- WRT to translating/thinking in a language, most of you know I think language is a later addition to 'core' thoughts rather than a core part of thoughts themselves, and most people have trouble loosening the grip that their mother tongue holds on their minds. So I'll try to add tiny bits around this idea to avoid repeating myself too much. My whole 'theory' may not apply equally well to whole sentences, because grammar and other language features that are very ingrained can really interact with your thoughts in deeper ways and 'shape them' to a degree; but it can be shown with simple, isolated words: Before I can voluntarily say something (for example: 'complexity' - come on, say it aloud), I necessarily need to have an idea of what I want to say - one that is accurate enough. Then you retrieve words to express it from your available vocabulary: let's say I come up with 'complexity' and 'difficulty', and maybe some more. They're similar but not the same. Now why did 'difficulty' appear in my 'list of ways to say X'? Because _to me_, the concepts are similar enough _in some way_ (with no context it might tend to the conceptual side, but this perceived similarity can be simply phonetic as well). So, when I compare these concepts as I would define them myself and what I _really_ want to say, I either discard all the words that really don't cut it, and/or I pick one of the ones that do, ideally the best matching one. When the choice if less than ideal, we see another demonstration of 'kids (foreigners/drunks/whatever) say the darndest things.' Now, for lots of reasons many people come up with no immediate, good alternatives on how to say much of what they want to say, so the selection process is nearly zero for them, and that's why they get to believe that they 'think in their native language'. One could add 'and in their own set ways' ;) But what happens when you come across a new word in your mother tongue? No 'foreign language' excuses, sorry. If you learn it accurately enough (instead of just guessing what it means and moving on, which often gets people in new 'darndest' situations), and I HAVE NO IDEA how this process inside your brain goes, and you get to an appropriate situation, the new word naturally shows as one of the possible -maybe the only one- alternatives to say whatever it is: this is how we know you properly learned it, even if I can't tell you about the internals. I could still let you say you 'think in your language' for one more second but you definitely are "embiggening" your vocabulary, right? So, why put foreign words in a different bag? They're just more alternatives to say the same things, and maybe the only alternative to express whole new concepts. To sum it all up: The point where you're all mistaken (not actually, but I love saying it :) is in thinking that you somehow get directly to concepts in worded form, and then you have to rearrange all of it into words in another language. You really need to be aware that you necessarily think a bit before the words to express those thoughts begin to pop up, and SOMEHOW (sorry Mr. Know-it-all can't help you here either) get the new, oh the dreaded word: 'foreign', alternatives to show up at the same time, or even instead of the old ones. The vocabulary preselection can surely be organized in at least one pre-conscious level and a conscious one, because as I type this I ponder English alternatives and no Spanish or German ones, so these are either not showing up or disappearing _before_ I start to consciously word my thoughts. And if I can do that, anyone else can do it. The bad news is, I can think of no other way to get to this point than the good old ones: 'try speaking X as much as possible, even if only to yourself', etc. I hope this helps a bit, or at least leads to further discussions of an always interesting topic. Edited by mrwarper on 03 January 2011 at 12:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| davidhowell Newbie United States Joined 5081 days ago 13 posts - 28 votes Speaks: German | Message 11 of 11 02 January 2011 at 11:22pm | IP Logged |
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@mrwarper I agree with what you've said, to a point -- although it feels slightly off topic. The main
'message' I'm trying to convey throughout this post is that with your native tongue, you don't need to "translate" you only have to THINK of what it is you want to say and how you want to orr the words. This is true for both grammar and vocabularly. Having said this, OF COURSE when we dream in a language it's only in our minds, and quite possibly gibberish that we perceive as the language. But, were still thinking in the language, are we not? Our inhibitions of whether something is right or wrong, or even possible, goes away to an extent, while we dream -- thus making it easier to think in your target language without the fear and repercussions Of being wrong. I encourage you, and others to give your opinion's on the subject as I'm by no means absolutely correct, and i just wish have have in depth conversation. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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