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Why I think the Pimsleur method is good. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5781 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 9 of 48 16 January 2011 at 12:40am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@ Cainntear.
I have long thought that the flaws in Pimsleur (such as those you mention) could be fixed with Computer Technology. Firstly voice-recognition software can warn you if you are pronouncing something badly because you are missing certain sounds that don't exist in English. Secondly imagine a course where the first lesson starts as now, but there is no fixed number of lessons, instead a computer program will alter subsequent lessons (including repetitions of lesson 1) based on your responses (right or wrong, and even response times). It could be pretty special! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| mr_chinnery Senior Member England Joined 5755 days ago 202 posts - 297 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 10 of 48 16 January 2011 at 1:47am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Why not? I do! I thought responding to input was the basis of the course? If I give the wrong answer, I do it again until I get it right, which doesn't take long. Then when I'm faced with the prompt in a practical situation, surely I will recall it more easily?
Macrocosmically, I agree with you. But Pimsleur operates on a much smaller scale though, it doesn't claim to make you C2 in 45 hours. I know the Italian language very badly in comparison with a native speaker, but I know how to say "Do you speak Italian?" very well, and I learnt it from Pimsleur instantly. I know Italian infinitely well compared to someone who knows no Italian.
I can't get my head round this statement. Are you saying all language courses should be perfect for all individuals? Please, point me in the right direction!
This is a typical criticism from a proficient linguist. How do you predict them? I'm about to do lesson 20 of Pimsleur Italian 1. What difficulties will I have? I can't predict the difficulties in the ensuing lessons because I haven't done them yet!
From the perspective of the amateur language learner, one just making a start on the road to polyglotism, this is great. One can learn exactly the same vocabulary, in many languages, using the exact same methodology, and in the case of these difficult far eastern languages, it will just take longer. Incidentally, I picked Italian because it's so easy, and because I like it.
I've found it really good, so don't be depressed! Your response is typical of some proficient language users, and it strikes me, a rank amateur, as rather pompous and snobbish. If it doesn't work for you, then don't use it. I was posting with the intention of informing other people similar to me that Pimsleur has worked for me, and it might for them. I don't know your learning method: perhaps you got on well with the way languages are taught in schools; perhaps you learnt from immersion; from books; from Michel Thomas, I don't know. But there are lots of people for whom Pimsleur is an excellent start. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6548 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 11 of 48 16 January 2011 at 7:01am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pimsleur is very weak at explaining verb conjugations.
through other sources, and work with a transcript, so you can differentiate between x and sh, for example.
This gets mentioned a lot. Pimsleur is narrow in scope, and after 90 lessons I'm ready to use my time focusing on conversation with a real person, etc. also, by my calculations, you'd need about 500 lessons to acquire enough vocabulary to be comfortable in most situations.
grammar systematically. Pimsleur throws a hodgepodge of grammar at you, rarely explaining anything.
recording, and use a transcript between recordings.
I find the time limit to be a very important feature of Pimsleur. Being able to respond quickly is very helpful when beginning conversation. That's why I fix the problems you mention with a transcript, and never pause. The transcript actually aids my memory too, by being a visual aid.
This is true to a certain extent, and unfortunate. But to be fair, there is certainly some accounting for differences. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6009 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 12 of 48 16 January 2011 at 11:03am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I don't know. My working theory is that it's because I haven't practiced it yet.
Sounds good in theory, and maybe it does work that way for you, but the body of evidence says that we learn to recall language better by practising recall than by listening to the correct answer several times. Language teachers are taught not to put a time limit on student answers, they're trained not to cut in, precisely because it robs the student of the opportunity for recall. (A time limit's OK if it's part of a quiz game, but it's not to be used in the main lesson.) Even the "Method" page on the Pimsleur site doesn't describe any benefits from the length of the pause. I'm sure I've seen the claim from other courses that the pause "simulates real conversation" or similar, but that's just post facto justification, and it's not based on industry best practice.
What I'm getting at, is that if I can get it in twice the time provided (through pausing), then I know it really badly, but at least I'm practising.
It's the course writers who should be doing the prediction, not you or me. It's a couple of years since I've done any Pimsleur, but as I recall there was a particular sentence that caught me out in several different languages because it was particularly long and quite different from everything that had come before it. It wasn't properly prepared, and it wasn't properly rehearsed.
There is no objective reason to consider that a benefit. Subjectively, I don't see it as one. But that's purely a matter of opinion and you're welcome to your own opinion.
Well yes, I am rather pompous and snobbish. To summarise my view: Pimsleur is an acceptable start for an "easy" language. However, there are better courses for most "easy" languages. (For an English speaker, anyway.) Pimsleur isn't great for "harder" languages, even though there's less material available for harder languages. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5128 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 13 of 48 16 January 2011 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
My experience with both courses is limited to a couple different languages, but I don't feel I got any less grammar from Pimsleur than I did with Michel Thomas. They were just presented differently. I walked away from both 30-lesson courses (well MT had more lessons) in two different languages and was able to continue on with more difficult lessons/grammar/vocabulary. True, you may prefer one more than the other, but I really don't believe one gives you "more" (which is subjective, anyway) than the other. R. == Edited by hrhenry on 16 January 2011 at 7:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5781 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 14 of 48 16 January 2011 at 11:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ufff, you've got to be kidding. First let me clarify that I *like* Pimsleur (I actually went to the trouble of joining a public library in a nearby town just to be able to borrow it- I could never afford to buy it), but there is NO WAY Pimsleur teaches anywhere near as much grammar as Michel Thomas. Just off the top of my head, does it teach you to say "could have" and "should have"? Not in any of the 3 level courses I tried (Spanish, German, Portuguese, Italian)! Nor does it teach the past subjunctive for Spanish/Italian/Portuguese (in fact it only explains a handful of present subjunctive forms). Michel Thomas has more lessons than Pimsleur? They are not really lessons but CD Tracks. The total time for Michel Thomas is 13 hours (15 if you do the Language Builder CDs). The total for a 3 level Pimsleur Course is a little less than 45 hours (the lessons are a little less than a half hour for most languages). So it might be a bit misleading to say that Michel Thomas has more lessons than Pimsleur. Now I am not bashing Pimsleur here, for instance I believe (from my experience- I know Cainntear does not agree with this) that for pronunciation Pimsleur beats the hell out of ANY other method, including Michel Thomas. But grammar is not its strong point, and that is exactly where Michel Thomas is brilliant. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5128 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 15 of 48 16 January 2011 at 11:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
No, not kidding. I wouldn't have written it if I didn't mean it. As I mentioned in my previous post, I have only used Pimsleur and MT with a couple languages. Pimsleur for Turkish - the 30 lesson course, and MT foundation and advanced for Polish, although the advanced course I went through much later, since it wasn't produced when I'd finished the foundation course. My choice of languages may in fact have something to do with it, but Pimsleur Turkish did, in fact, teach quite a bit of grammar. I don't see how it couldn't, since the structure of the language is so different from English (and that's who the course is aimed at). They even managed to cover your "could have/would have" in those 30 lessons, albeit briefly. Again, this may be due to the actual language being taught. I don't believe, as others do, that the course is identical for every language offered. But again, I've not gone through all of their courses. I'd like to meet someone who has. That seems daunting and pointless, if it's just to prove a point. My point was that I didn't walk away from either course feeling like I got more grammar from one than the other. My MT experience wasn't with one of the initial courses offered either, so that also may have something to do with it. I will say, however, that I enjoyed the Polish MT course teacher. She was quite thorough with pronunciation, which from what I understand, was not good in the initial MT offerings. I should probably bring up the fact that neither language was my "first" L2, so I may have a different outlook than someone who is undertaking a new language for the first time. In any case, back to my original point: they both were useful courses, and I got a lot out of both of them. Sort of silly for someone to say "No you didn't" when, in fact, I did. R. == 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 Li Fei Pro Member United States Joined 5121 days ago 147 posts - 182 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 16 of 48 17 January 2011 at 1:14am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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As one of the more "amateur" learners on this forum, I have found Pimsleur a useful part of my Mandarin
studies. One benefit that hasn't yet been mentioned is that one can do Pimsleur during otherwise wasted time commuting, chopping vegetables, or walking for exercise. The drills and speaking practice seem to be helping my pronunciation a good bit, and the pressure to produce quick answers keeps me engaged.. For grammar and vocabulary, I use other resources. It doesn't have to be either/or; both/and works better for me. 6 persons have voted this message useful |
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