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Attitude toward Russian in Europe | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5047 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes  Speaks: Russian* | Message 41 of 128 05 December 2011 at 7:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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But one can easily get immersion in some parts of Ukraine (for example Crimea), Narva in
Estonia, somewhere in Latvia (there are cities where only Russian is spoken) without any visa. It is easy to get a visa to Belarus, plus life there is very cheap now. I don't know about Kazahstan. Why do Russians then study European languages, like English, French, German, despite strict visa policies? Does anyone know how strict Russian visa policy is? Are there many refusals? Edited by Марк on 05 December 2011 at 7:32pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7147 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 42 of 128 05 December 2011 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
The trouble is that as Volte pointed out when visiting Ukraine, it's not Russia (even if the vast majority of people in the south and east are effectively native speakers of Russian). It's a little bit like saying that one should seriously consider getting immersion in English by visiting Québec or get immersion in Swedish by visiting Finland just because there are plenty of native speakers in certain spots. If you're a fan of immersion, why not go to the place where the target language is really part of the territory's culture and political makeup? Wouldn't exposure to or immersionin Russian in St. Petersburg, Moscow or hell even Novosibirsk somehow feel preferable ("more authentic?") for a learner compared to Russian in Narva, Riga, Sevastopol, Almaty or Minsk? As far as getting a tourist visa, an American needs the following: 1) a completed electronic form 2) a valid passport to be delivered in person (or via a visa agency) 3) a standard photo for passports 4) a tourist confirmation from an authorized Russian travel agency acting as the host or a hotel, registered with the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and a voucher from your hotel or travel agency in Russia (WTH? The worst that ever had to do for a tourist visa application was for Czech Republic many years ago: money order, application form, passport and photos - none of this junk about "confirming" with an authorized agency - especially considering that I've been keeping costs down by staying with friends or doing Couchsurfing and avoiding canned kitschy tours) 5) A cover letter that tells the embassy of my arrival and departure dates, as well as points of entry/departure and also my itinerary in Russia (WTH?! Ever heard of some privacy? What matters is that I don't overstay my visa. Not whether I passed by such-and-such tourist attraction in city X on day 1 or visited a friend in city Y on day 2) 6) money order of $140 for basic single or double-entry tourist visa done in normal processing time (4-20 working days). The sum of these annoyances turns off a lot of would-be visitors including me. As I had mentioned earlier many of us in the "West" are lucky (or spoiled depending on your pint of view) by having so many possible destinations for travel without needing visas. If I were studying Russian, I'd want to go to Russia. Going to something that looks sometimes like Russia (complete with native speakers) even if I don't need a visa just wouldn't cut it ultimately. I'd go to Estonia to learn Estonian, I'd go to Ukraine to learn Ukrainian, I'd go to Kazakhstan to learn... well, you get the idea. Making it difficult to go to the target language's "motherland" especially when you consider that Russian has nowhere near the same degree of ubiquitousness as English is a credible disadvantage. It's also a lot more feasible for people to learn English and get their fill of it and the associated culture(s) without once stepping foot in the Anglosphere because it's everywhere for better or worse even from a very young age. How many people know about Mickey Mouse, Snoopy or the Beatles compared to Ну, погоди! Чебурашка or Тату?) 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5047 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 43 of 128 05 December 2011 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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"Wouldn't exposure to or immersionin Russian in St. Petersburg, Moscow or hell even
Novosibirsk somehow feel preferable ("more authentic?") for a learner compared to Russian in Narva, Riga, Sevastopol, Almaty or Minsk?" No, it wouldn't. Belorussia is a more Russian-speaking country than Russia, Russian is an official language there. Nothern Kazahstan is also Russian-speaking. So, that's like learning English in Ireland. One can learn English there, not only Irish language. That's like saying one cannot learn English in America because it is not the motherland of English! What you wrote about visa is still significantly less than for example America requires from Russian citizens. Edited by Марк on 05 December 2011 at 8:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7147 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 45 of 128 05 December 2011 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
You missed the point. English is so ubiquitous that it's quite feasible to get your fill of it and the associated culture(s) without even visiting the Anglosphere (visa required or not). What you're suggesting is that it's possible to get a worthwhile "Russian immersion" outside Russia (even if Russia is the unspoken preferred choice ignoring political/consular shenanigans). It seems a little strange don't you think? It'd be also like saying that an American studying Hebrew and into immersion could get away with it without going to Israel (safety considerations notwithstanding) just because there's a diaspora and that native speakers in Hebrew (and even Yiddish) are relatively plentiful in certain large cities in the USA. Although many Belorussians speak only Russian, if you're a fan of immersion it doesn't seem to give a complete picture when you're in an environment that isn't really associated (yet) with the target language no matter how much of the target language you use. Another point: why don't top flight universities' Russian studies programs offer exchanges with universities outside Russia? Would it be more credible for a university's Russian or Slavic Languages' department to offer exchanges to Kiev or Moscow? Riga or St. Petersburg? Let's face it, Russian is still best associated with one country or defined territory - Russia. The other successor states of the USSR have a variable and rather ambiguous position on Russian and are less likely to be the first (or even second choice) for anyone wishing for some meaningful immersion in Russian. English is not like that at all. The analogy using Ireland falls short. Making it difficult to go to the place most or best associated with the target language isn't to be dismissed or skirted around out of hand. Of course what I say doesn't mean that a target language needs a defined nation-state to act as travel destination to entice people like me who treat immersion seriously. If I would really want to go to learn Mari, I'd have to go through the hassle of getting a visa to Russia just so that I could go to Mari-El. That's fine and I'm conforming to the physical reality that my target language's native range is virtually confined to a small patch in a larger unit.
However you keep ignorning that many Westerners find this a genuine annoyance. It's one thing if people were used to it as Russians probably are. However, in reality, many of us find this to be sufficiently annoying to dissuade us from starting. Not scarcity of materials or lack of contact with a large diaspora or well-established expatriate communities. Edited by Chung on 05 December 2011 at 9:29pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| vonPeterhof Tetraglot Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4763 days ago 715 posts - 1527 votes Speaks: Russian*, EnglishC2, Japanese, German Studies: Kazakh, Korean, Norwegian, Turkish | Message 46 of 128 05 December 2011 at 9:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
With Ukraine it's a bit more complicated. A lot of places in Eastern and Southern Ukraine are Russified to the same extent as Almaty, but there are also places like Odessa, where it is somewhat arguable if Ukrainian was ever spoken by the majority (I mentioned in the "Your favorite dialect(s)" thread that my favourite Russian dialect is the Odessa dialect, which was much more heavily influenced by Yiddish than by Ukrainian, to the point that some consider it basically Yiddish relexified with Russian and Ukrainian words). As for Crimea, it only became part of Ukraine in the 1950's and there are still many Russian nationalists both in Russia and Crimea calling for its return to Russia. Sevastopol in particular is a very Russian city. It also has a lot of historical and cultural value, due to its connections to Russian military history and all the Imperial summer residences in Crimea. I think it would be a great idea for Sevastopol to advertise itself as a destination for learners of Russian. As for, Estonia and Latvia, those might indeed be problematic. Learning Russian there would probably be similar to learning Spanish in the US Southwest, in that there is quite a bit of a cultural divide between the majority and the Russian-speaking minority, especially among the older generations. In short, yes, there are good places for Russian immersion outside Russia, no less "authentic" for Russian than Dublin and Cape Town are for English. But I wouldn't put all the blame for the Westerners' ignorance of those opportunities for immersion on Westerners themselves. If there were more universities, language schools and tourist firms from those places advertising them for the opportunity to immerse oneself in Russian, then maybe there would be less of a problem. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| vonPeterhof Tetraglot Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4763 days ago 715 posts - 1527 votes Speaks: Russian*, EnglishC2, Japanese, German Studies: Kazakh, Korean, Norwegian, Turkish | Message 48 of 128 05 December 2011 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Anyway, I don't think that the Hebrew analogy works either. I am not sure if your argument is more about the actual position of Russian in the other former Soviet states or merely about how it is perceived outside the former Eastern bloc, but as someone who comes from the region I believe I can say that Russian is so ubiquitous in Belarus, Eastern Ukraine and Kazakhstan that it's quite feasible to get your fill of it and the associated culture without even visiting Russia. The nationalists from these countries may bemoan it, but the fact is that those places have undergone a massive cultural Russification, so the Russian language and culture are not limited to the local Russian diaspora. Of course those places wouldn't be the first choice for immersion, but neither is Ireland when it comes to English. And if foreigners perceive those places as less conducive to immersion in Russian, well, as far as I'm concerned it's their loss ;) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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