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Attitude toward Russian in Europe | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| s0fist Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5037 days ago 260 posts - 445 votes  Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Sign Language, German, Spanish, French | Message 121 of 128 18 December 2011 at 2:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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While Tatiana Tolstaya is unequivocally a great author, she is very extremist in her views,
a well known and, from that excerpt, obvious fact, and I don't think people should take her as seriously as some of them do, no more so than for instance Fisher's antisemitism -- lots of creative genius people tend to adopt a very radical view of the world. As far as invasions and revolutions go, Russia has had more than its share of turbulence. However, lots of places are bubbling cauldrons of racial diversity, including the US, Europe, South America, Asia, etc. I don't think it makes sense to cite biodiversity going back centuries as cause for an inevitable apocalypse, and yes that does pose a racist viewpoint on her part. But there are many more places that much more diverse racially, culturally and historically. One would be hard pressed by now to find a country that hasn't been conquered or hasn't "perished" in a revolution (@espejismo, why such a strong word). However, I would not agree with Tolstaya's doomed and often nihilistic views (however sane she is) in any shape or form, if anything Russia is even more a victim of such views as it is of invasions and revolutions. And even though turbulence is a setback, it certainly doesn't take a linear time to play catch up, although there's no denying that in many ways Russia has a while to go in many social, economic, political, philosophical and other respects. On the other hand, while I myself am more optimistic about the inevitably positive future for Russia, I can very well understand the hesitant and apprehensive looks from most of Europeans. It's very natural for a spontaneous hierarchy of views relating to safety, desirability, and other characteristics to emerge: think would most people rather go to France or Moldova, Argentina or Nicaragua, Egypt or Iraq, and so on. So I'm just saying I can see why Russia isn't at the top of many people's list, and why Russian language isn't a centerpiece of the European cornucopia of languages. That being said, I would encourage people to go to Russia, whether for tourism or for language studies and make their own personal judgements rather than succumb to the subtle pressures of historical views. Be the change that you want to see, just do it, and all that good stuff! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| espejismo Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5042 days ago 498 posts - 905 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Spanish, Greek, Azerbaijani | Message 122 of 128 18 December 2011 at 3:21am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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When Tolstaya told some young student who sounded full of hope and enthusiasm that Russia is falling down the abyss, people in the audience laughed. It's certainly a very grim outlook, but if we're to look at it as a way to express that something has always gone wrong in Russia and probably will in the foreseeable future, it's true enough. I can't recall her making any other extremist statements. At other times she would simply say that she can't predict the future or that she sees hope in the growing generation. She's not Valeriya Novodvorskaya, who makes extremist statements only.
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| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5264 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 123 of 128 18 December 2011 at 4:56am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, but in history you cannot just assert something and assume that it is self-evident. One could argue just as well that had it not been for the Mongols, there would be just one Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian people, Catholic due to Polish rule, and Kiev would be their capital and Moscow would be a small town. Yes, that's possible. By the same token, were it not for the Mongols, China might have expanded north, ruled Siberia, and been the pre- eminent world power already in 1800. But what's the point of talking of hypotheticals? To attribute Russia's "twistedness" to the Mongols is to have an inherently Western bias. I'm sure the Mongols would say it was really the Teutonic Knights, the Ottomans, Poland-Lithuania, Napoleon, and Hitler who are more to blame. And who am I to decide either way? In other words, what I'm saying from a scientific perspective is that there are many confounders to any particular theory of why Russia is the way she is. Wholeheartedly embracing the West - whose political entities have attacked Russia on several occasions - may not be the answer in all respects. Russia needs to decide what she'll do on her own, what she'll borrow from the US, from Europe, from China and Japan, etc. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5264 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 124 of 128 18 December 2011 at 5:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||
How did Russian despotism demonstrate a unique continuity with the Mongols as opposed to it's having arisen independently or due to influence from someone else? And why is it more menacing and retrograde than a king who says "L'état, c'est moi"? And pray tell what is the "West/East" philosophical divide within Europe? I know of an East/West divide between those philosophies springing from Greece and those springing from China, but I don't know of any philosophical divide within Europe. Are you referring to Aristotle being favored in the Catholic church and Plato being favored in the Orthodox church? I doubt that has much to do with Russian political development...
What did the UK do when Argentina attacked the Falkland Islands?
Again, the problem you have here is a major confounder. The Renaissance and Reformation didn't happen anywhere in the Eastern Orthodox world. Of course, we can argue that the others were dealing with the same sort of retrograde influence (and tragically, much longer) from another "eastern" power - the Ottomans. But just self- evidentially state that Russia's delayed development along European lines is necessarily due to the Mongols again demonstrates the Western bias. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5047 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 125 of 128 18 December 2011 at 8:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Something has always gone wrong everywhere in the world. Saying "Russians are lazy' is like saying "Jews are greedy" for example. The statement is racist. Some of them are lazy, some of them are not, as well as everywhere. I know both. Russia has been borrowing something from the West all the time, and you are wrong if you think that it was only traditions of freedom, respect to a humain being and so on that was borrowed. Peter the Great increased the number of crimes that were punished by execution under the influens of Dutch and Swedish law, for example. Marxism was a western ideology too. Mongols made a lot of destructions, but their influence on Russian culture and society was very limited. They've never lived in Russia, and never ruled directly. The Srbian and Bulgarian influence was much stronger that time. From this thread I see an important difference between Russians and Poles. Russians do not say "I won't learn German because of the Second World War", all their invasion was much destructive than Soviet hegemony in Central Europe after the war. How can you explain that? Russians are more generous, kind and able to forgive? Edited by Марк on 18 December 2011 at 8:47am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s0fist Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5037 days ago 260 posts - 445 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Sign Language, German, Spanish, French | Message 126 of 128 18 December 2011 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I was about to make a similar remark. Also "laziness" is a poignant subject. I think many people would agree that by and large Americans consider Europeans much more "relaxed" and conversely Europeans often find the American way too hurried and work obsessed, and yet most of Europe/US is much more similar that it is to the culture and ethics of Russia. So one can't be too hasty and dump all the Russia's problems on "laziness" of Russians, any more than the proverbial Russian "2 problems" (for those not in the know those are idiots and roads). Also don't forget that despite the acclaimed "laziness" Russia is very much on the frontiers of various sciences and technologies as any other country, and perhaps more than most.
I'm not calling Tolstaya a quack, she's much less extremist than Novodvorskaya though I've never payed much attention to Novodvorskaya I must admit. But I still maintain that Tolstaya's degree of "fanaticism" has not gone unnoticed and has come up in spontaneous conversations with several people more than once or twice, so whether her remarks make you burst in laughter OR ruminate more on their aptness, the only 'wrong' reaction would be to take it at face value.
Very good points! Too many what ifs and simplifications of complex subjects tend to make for a cool topic of conversation (would you look at all the tabloids) and great literature (maybe that's how Tolstaya's writing style is so good), but often have far too little of practical, sane value on the what-who-and-why of the presently evolved political, social and economic climate. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5047 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 127 of 128 18 December 2011 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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It si also difficult to explain why for example Zimbabwe is so poor despite being under
British rule for many years. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Aurora Tetraglot Newbie Belgium Joined 4537 days ago 1 posts - 2 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, French Studies: Dutch, Swedish, Russian | Message 128 of 128 14 June 2012 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Just finished reading through this thread and I have to say that it was a really interesting read to hear about how Russian is perceived all over Europe. Just thought that I would comment on my experiences with regards to visas and such.
Until a couple of years ago I never had any inclination to learn Russian and visiting Russia wasn't really "on my list". Even though it is our largest neighbour nextdoor, Russia felt like the end of the world to me and more exotic than visiting somewhere in Asia. I can't really quite say why this is, but my disinterest in visiting Russia was more due to a lack of knowledge about the country and not due to any animosity or shared history (coming from Western Europe anyway). I started to get interested in visiting Russia and learning Russian after I met a lot of friends from there whilst we were all doing a voluntary year of service in Germany. I have been to Russia three times in the past two years and I can say that the trouble getting a visa is entirely dependent upon your nationality and which travel agency you end up using. In the first two cases I lived in Berlin and there was a great travel agency there that handled visa applications for €35 and I never had to worry about anything else: no hotel voucher, nothing. I would leave my passport on Monday and come back on Friday to collect everything. The last experience after I moved away was a much worse: The travel agency basically only brought my passport to the embassy for me and stamped some piece of paper that the embassy wanted to see - I was on my own getting a hotel voucher from Russia, which this was absurdly expensive. I have always stayed with friends whilst in Russia and the way it works is that the hotels there know that they have a monopoly on this and charge hundreds of Euros just to issue a piece of paper saying that you will stay with them even though you will be with a friend or family or whatever. It is possible for friends you might know to apply for the voucher as a personal visit and evade the hotels, but be advised that this takes forever and you need to plan well in advance, at least 2 months before you want to leave I would say. The positive to having to get a hotel voucher was that the hotel handled the police registration in Russia - The previous two times my friends and I had to register my stay in Russia as a tourist ourselves. This was done at the post office (you can also go to the police office, but why would choose to go there instead?). This always took hours and you fill in the same forms as all of the immigrants from Central Asia and everybody in there is grumpy like you couldn't believe. At least it's cheap though... My visa experience above was as an EU national - I noticed on the Russian embassy website that most nationalities fill in a simple one page form like I did. They have "special forms" though for US, UK, Canadian and a couple of other nationalities that looked like a nightmare to fill out and which asked about your place of work, salary, etc. and were four pages long. I don't want to put anybody off visiting Russia with the above though - Once you get through all of the visa bureaucracy it is definitely worth the trip! I have been to Moscow, St. Petersburg, Yaroslavl and Rostov. I would love to do the steriotypical Transiberian railroad trip on my next visit and see a bit of Eastern Russia. Anyway, Russia is in many ways a dream come true for language learners, since in my experience everyone is always very helpful and thrilled to be hearing a foreigner speaking Russian, no matter how bad you speak. The vast majority of people that I have met only speak Russian and/or a little English or German, but outside of the bigger cities even less so. Those who did know a foreign language (like my friends mentioned above) tend to speak really well, but were always willing to speak in Russian as well. So its not like the Netherlands or Scandinavia where people will switch to English in a heartbeat if you stutter at all! I guess the moral of the story is to try and find the best Russian travel agency near you to handle everything. It does look as if most people from English-speaking countries will have to pay a bit more for their visa which is of course annoying. My first trip to Russia was actually with the "Moscow Express" train from Berlin, which travelled through Warsaw and Minsk. This was great fun, but I don't recommend that you do it without some Russian friends along for the ride or a good knowledge of Russian, because nobody on the train or at the border spoke anything other than Russian :) Oh and you'll probably need a transit visa for Belarus as well like I did, but in comparison with the Russian embassy that was easy! 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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