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Is Catalan under threat? | ||
Tags: Catalan | Endangered Language | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| aodhanc Diglot Groupie Iceland Joined 6251 days ago 92 posts - 130 votes  Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish | Message 1 of 51 11 March 2012 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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It seems that the Catalan language has been in decline over the last few years. I have
just come across some figures (see link below) from the Catalan Statistics Office showing that between 2003 and 2008, the percentage of habitual Catalan speakers declined from 46% to 35% (in just 5 years). The number of habitual Spanish speakers declined slightly also in the period, from 47% to just under 46%. Arabic increased from 0% to 2%. Interestingly, the number of speakers with both official languages as native rose from 4.7% to almost 12%. If this type of trend continues, is it likely that Catalan will become a marginalised language in its own province? Contrary to common perception, it's already in the minority there i.e. under 50% of the population speak it as their usual language. What does the future hold? http://www.idescat.cat/territ/BasicTerr?TC=5&V0=3&V1=3&V3=33 25&V4=3326&ALLINFO=TRUE&PARENT=25&CTX=B Edited by aodhanc on 11 March 2012 at 7:34pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6573 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 2 of 51 11 March 2012 at 7:42pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Any language that is not an official national language and majority language in its nation faces enormous
difficulties in staying vibrant and alive in the long term. It would take enormous support from the local government (of the kind we see in Quebec) to keep Catalan alive and healthy, I suspect. The evidence from all over the world is pretty clear. Look at the non-Mandarin Sinitic languages, look at Tibetan, look at Welsh, Cornish, Gaelic, look at Saami, look at the native languages of North and South America. Look at Hebrew before Israel. A language without a nation is a dying language. It might be a big dying language, and it might be dying very slowly, but it's dying nonetheless. Maybe there are a few exceptions, but I've yet to hear of them, and the majority trend is abuntantly clear. In the absence of Catalonian independence (not likely), Catalan is going to die. It might take a while, but it's going to die. And that's really sad. EDIT: I'm sure there are a lot of exceptions in many sub-Saharan African countries. This is because of lack of education. Once education gets underway in these countries, languages will be dying left and right. Edited by Ari on 11 March 2012 at 7:51pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5444 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 3 of 51 11 March 2012 at 8:30pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Catalan has a relatively strong position in Catalonia. It is an official language, it is used throughout the
educational system from kindergartens to universities, there are TV stations broadcasting in Catalan, it has the support of local and regional authorities. It can't really be compared with Sami or Cornish. Catalan is probably in a better position than it was 40 years ago, but maybe not than it was 10 years ago. If we look at the Idescat statistics, from 2003 to 2008 there was a significant rise in the numbers of speakers of foreign languages (àrab, altres llengues, combinacions d'altres llengues). There was also a significant rise in the number of speakers that uses or identifies with both Catalan and Spanish (ambdues). If we sum up the percentages for "català" and "ambdues" there is still a decline, but the figures are far less dramatic than if we only look at "català". Spanish is and will continue to be a very important language in Catalonia. Even if Catalonia would get independence from Spain, Spanish would remain an important language. Immigration is a challenge for Catalan. For Spaniards form other parts of Spain and for Latin Americans, whose native language is Spanish, the easy option is to to continue speaking Spanish. For foreigners, Spanish is also the most tempting option: it is a world language and in addition there are much more learning materials and language courses available. Edited by tractor on 11 March 2012 at 8:45pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6694 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 4 of 51 12 March 2012 at 10:55am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I have travelled several times in Catalunya during the last couple of years (thanks to cheap flight tickets), and as far as I can ascertain Catalan is alive and well there - in fact to a degree where you can speak Catalan to everybody and if they can't understand it then they are the odd ones out.
But its sister language or dialect or whatever it is, Valencian, is dying, at least in the towns and most of all in Valencia itself. It may still be in use in the countryside, but anything which only is spoken outside the towns is in danger - witness Low German. The Valencian authorities take care that there are bilingual signs and announcements all over the place, but you don't hear much Valencian in the streets of Valencia. One thing that puzzled me during my last visit there was that there weren't even newspapers in Catalan outside a few major kiosks. Maybe it is the campain for establishing Valencian as a separate language which has backfired - if the local government really wanted Valencian to survive then it should stress the ties with Catalunya and Catalan. But I guess it is too late - Valencian is on its way out. Edited by Iversen on 12 March 2012 at 10:56am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6934 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 5 of 51 12 March 2012 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
One should also consider demographics. In the long run the language of any population group with below-replacement birth rate is going to be under threat. Edited by frenkeld on 12 March 2012 at 10:06pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Saim Pentaglot Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5074 days ago 124 posts - 215 votes Speaks: Serbo-Croatian, English*, Catalan, Spanish, Polish Studies: Dutch, Portuguese, Italian, Occitan, Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic (Maghribi), French, Modern Hebrew, Ukrainian, Slovenian | Message 6 of 51 13 March 2012 at 10:17am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Thing is Ari, Catalans do have a "nation". The Spanish constitution says that (an unstated number of) the countries autonomous communities constitute "historic nationalities". In that sense, perhaps it's only a strong identity tied to language that's needed, whether it's for a region or for a nation-state.
But then again, Austro-Bavarian, Swiss German, Venetian and Neapolitan are all safe AFAIK, and yet they are not official or used in education (actually maybe Swiss German is??). Why is this the case? I think it's due to a lack of internal migration within the official-language-using area, as well as a lack of outright oppression from the government (apathy instead). Catalan had both Castilian-speaking immigration and anti-Catalan laws. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6694 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 7 of 51 13 March 2012 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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The question is what it means that for instance Austro-Bavarian, Swiss German, Venetian and Neapolitan are safe if they aren't used in writing, in the media or in school. Maybe Swiss German is in a special position because it has its (more or less) own country (though hardly anyone writes in it even there), but you can travel up and down Bavaria and the two Italian regions without noticing anything but a slight regional accent because people generally speak Hugh German and Standard Italian, and almost everything is written in the standard languages - apart from Asterix in everything possible.
Look also at Scotland where the pronunciation clearly is different from that around London, but the vocabulary is English, and it is hardly possible to find a book or magazine in Scots (apart from the poetry of Robbie Burns). So far Catalan has a much better position than the others because it actually is used as an independent language, not just as a dialect of something else. Edited by Iversen on 13 March 2012 at 3:30pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5217 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 8 of 51 13 March 2012 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Not as easy as you think. I'd never think of settling there because of the pressure to use Catalan *only* in the workplace. While such idiocy is not to be expected from independent employers, it is what you will get from the local government, for which I kind of worked twice. I don't like having things choked down my throat so I fled.
Besides, it's something you can use if you move to other parts of Spain, while the opposite is not true.
The mere fact they don't name what such "historic nationalities" were should give away how ill-conceived our constitution is at some points -- that was all BS put there to appease the nationalists after the regime change. The truth is, before fusing with the rest of what would become Spain around 1700, Catalonia was never a nation of its own -- it was always a part of the Kingdom of Aragón (which flag was officially adopted for the region of Catalonia). Ironically, modern Aragón has no such nationalistic aspirations. As I often mention, minor Spanish languages are but a toy in the hands of modern politicians.
The former it had, has and will have, the latter I am inclined to believe never happened. Care to back up such a claim with some reference? 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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