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Is Catalan under threat? | ||
Tags: Catalan | Endangered Language | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Saim Pentaglot Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5074 days ago 124 posts - 215 votes  Speaks: Serbo-Croatian, English*, Catalan, Spanish, Polish Studies: Dutch, Portuguese, Italian, Occitan, Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic (Maghribi), French, Modern Hebrew, Ukrainian, Slovenian | Message 41 of 51 27 May 2012 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I'm sorry but what's the "BOE"?
http://www20.gencat.cat/docs/Llengcat/Documents/Publicacions /Catala%20llengua%20Europa/ Arxius/cat_europa_angles_07.pdf
http://www.nouscatalans.cat/index.php?option=com_contingut&c ontingut=329
[...] Every single one of the thousands of civil organisations of all kinds that had flourished under the Republic, from neighbourhood basketball teams to the Catalan Blind People's Association, was obliged to Castilianise its name, its statutes, its membership cards and its meetings. [/quote] 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| COF Senior Member United States Joined 5822 days ago 262 posts - 354 votes Speaks: English* | Message 42 of 51 27 May 2012 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Yes it is. Especially in urban areas like Barcelona, it is far more common to hear Spanish on the streets than it is to hear Catalan. Probably because of the huge immigrant population, which backs up my initial assurtion. Immigrants don't bother learning Catalan.
How is forcing doctors to speak Catalan not politically correct? It's an undeniable fact that most, if not all Catalans also are fluent in Spanish, and that for doctors to be forced to speak to their patients in Catalan is nothing but appeasing Catalan nationalists.
I don't doubt in rural areas with no immigration from either the rest of Spain or abroad that Catalan is the most common language, as there is obviously no need for any other language. However, in urban areas particularly, the prefered language is clearly Spanish. In general, the stronghold of the Catalan language is the older generation, younger Catalonians clearly prefer Spanish.
Most democratic governments don't impose languages on anymore. Most languages have evolved completely naturally, over the centuries and people learn them out of neccessity and need, not nationalistic sentiment. However, the natural trend in Catalonia is clearly moving towards the use of Spanish in everyday life because it is far more practical, and the government of Catalonia are trying to artificially steer this back towards Catalan. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5217 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 43 of 51 27 May 2012 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
The publication I mentioned and which website I linked earlier. Boletín Oficial del Estado. THE official periodical publication covering every legal measure, decision, resolution, etc. taken/adopted by official organisms in the country, in the uttermost detail (so that even my name has been cited several times there). Incredibly useful at times when you want to find out, with first-hand evidence, if a journalist or politician is misinformed or outright lying about things like what laws are promulgated, what funds are assigned to, or where taxes go... http://www.nouscatalans.cat/index.php?option=com_contingut&c ontingut=329 A very subjective look at anti-Catalan prejudice in Spain. As usual, I find some comments more interesting and down-to-earth, especially one by some Dutch guy. The problem with such 'looks' is that both anti- and catalanists are likely to start shouting and flinging crap at whatever they perceive as 'the other camp' (which is whoever contradicts them) at the drop of a hat, as you can read there. Unfortunately that doesn't add a single bit of truth to the stories they tell, and more often than not it works the other way round. Seriously, saying "there were already some 150 laws..." makes it true? Citing *a couple* verifiably would make it at least slightly believable. Otherwise excuse me if I take these with the same bucketload of salt as UFO stories targeting agent Mulder. I'd be more inclined to believe information about laws coming from an official organism like the GenCat... http://www20.gencat.cat/docs/Llengcat/Documents/Publicacions /Catala%20llengua%20Europa/ Arxius/cat_europa_angles_07.pdf
... except when blatant statements like this indicate that they're obviously Minitrueing History. As it happens, I have a customer in Barcelona who owns a book shop with a title list fringing 20,000 books (give or take a couple thousands). Now, literally thousands of them perfectly normal books are written... in Catalan! and were published --gasp!-- during Franco's rule, and before. Now pardon me, but I find it hard to reconcile the notion of the language being prohibited in the publishing of books with so many publishers risking their integrity just to earn a few bucks. Oh, don't tell me, I know -- it was a patriotic act -- risking their lives was nothing compared to letting the world see their favourite Grandma's recipes in Catalan! Lessons to be learned? The hairier an issue is, the less you can trust stories surrounding it. Especially when they come from parties with an interest (usually making 'the others' look bad). Edited by mrwarper on 27 May 2012 at 8:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| COF Senior Member United States Joined 5822 days ago 262 posts - 354 votes Speaks: English* | Message 44 of 51 02 June 2012 at 7:22pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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In Barcelona, what is the most commonly heard language on the streets - Catalan or Spanish? I've always assumed it was Spanish, but perhaps I'm wrong?
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| anamsc2 Tetraglot Groupie United States Joined 4550 days ago 85 posts - 186 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Catalan, German Studies: French | Message 45 of 51 02 June 2012 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I would say it's about 50-50, depending on the day, where you are, etc. From my experience, both languages are pretty strong, but one day you might hear mostly Spanish and another day you might hear mostly Catalan. If you're in very touristy areas, you might hear a bit more Spanish. This is just my opinion, though, and is completely unquantified. I suspect that people who have very strong opinions about the state of Spanish or Catalan in Barcelona/Catalonia would have different viewpoints as it serves their purposes. ETA: I want to point out that "outside of Barcelona" ≠ "rural" (necessarily). As a result, even if Catalan were only spoken outside of Barcelona, we wouldn't be able to conclude that Catalan is only spoken in rural areas. There are urban areas outside of Barcelona that are primarily Catalan-speaking. (Plus, I don't think Barcelona can be called "not Catalan-speaking.") Edited by anamsc2 on 02 June 2012 at 7:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4659 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 46 of 51 02 June 2012 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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There are also urban areas outside of Barcelona that are primarily Spanish-speaking (for example Badalona).
Barcelona is an originally Catalan-speaking city that has been Hispanified. just like Brussels which is an originally Flemish/Dutch-speaking city that has been Frenchified. Unfortunately, many people in Barcelona understand Catalan but will refuse to speak it, just like there are many people in Brussels who understand Dutch but will pretend they don't understand it...Overall, it's a difficult situation in both cities...But, for a shorter stay, you shouldn't have any problems, I've never had Moving there would be a completely another thing, I guess... Edited by Medulin on 02 June 2012 at 8:57pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| anamsc2 Tetraglot Groupie United States Joined 4550 days ago 85 posts - 186 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Catalan, German Studies: French | Message 47 of 51 02 June 2012 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
This is true (although Badalona is in the Barcelona metro area and is extremely close; I was refering to cities further out).
Well, many people in Barcelona understand Catalan but prefer Spanish, and many people in Barcelona understand Spanish but prefer Catalan. People don't generally "refuse" to speak either language, I think; they just make a choice about which language they want to speak. I've never had any problems there, and I lived there -- I'm not sure what you mean by "it's a difficult situation." Edited by anamsc2 on 02 June 2012 at 9:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Alexander86 Tetraglot Senior Member United Kingdom alanguagediary.blogs Joined 4972 days ago 224 posts - 323 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, German, Catalan Studies: Swedish | Message 48 of 51 02 June 2012 at 10:05pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Could I just point out that although Franco did ban Catalan in many areas - education, official functions and so on
- books were published in Catalan from the early 1950s, so to say "Catalan was banned" is incorrect. As to speaking Catalan on the streets of Barcelona, you'll hear both and it depends where you are in the city whether that will be more Catalan or more Spanish. An interesting fact is that the overwhelming majority of classes at all levels of education are given in Catalan, which is a great stimulus to the language, especially in comparison with the situation here in Wales. Any further questions please ask, I'm a Spanish History Ph.D! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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