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The concepting of noticing | ||
Tags: Corrections | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6003 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 17 of 56 09 December 2010 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
That's a rather unusual definition of grammatical correctness -- grammar isn't just raw structures, it's about the meaning of structures. So there is something grammatically wrong, it's just hidden by appearances. However, you're right to say that this is a big part of many learners' problems. People who advocate learning by habit and "what sounds right" ignore the fact that you can develop bad habits by saying something that is a possible sentence (and therefore "sounds right") but doesn't mean what you want to say. Arekkusu, you're right about the literal translation problem, but it can certainly be compounded when the mistranslation is a possible sentence -- I'm sure I've had conversations with other learners who've refused correction because "I've heard a native say that". Trying to explain that it meant something else is ignored, because people love to justify their own opinions, and it's hard to convince them of anything that goes against them. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5373 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 18 of 56 09 December 2010 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Now that you mention it, I think I'll stick to my explanation ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| hypersport Senior Member United States Joined 5873 days ago 216 posts - 307 votes Studies: Spanish | Message 19 of 56 10 December 2010 at 4:54am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Just yesterday I had read an article about Mexican usage of the the preposition "hasta" whereby it could be construed to mean "not until" instead of the usual "until". I didn't really pay much attention to the article, but this very evening right here in Montreal, Canada, I was talking Spanish to a salesperson and I asked when was the store open tomorrow. Ha answered something like "Estamos acá hasta las diez." When I expressed surprise that the store would be open till 10 at night "hasta las diez de la noche", the salesperson promptly said "desde las diez de la mañana." So, in fact he was saying that the store opened at 10 A.M. Then it hit me that this was the very phenomenon that the article had made me aware of.
Hasta by itself doesn't mean "not until". You would have to put "no" in front of it and then it could mean "not until" depending on context. If I would have experienced what you did, I would have asked the guy again because what transpired here doesn't make any sense. I spoke to two Mexicans today and gave them this example and both looked at me confused. They agreed with me that the original answer from the employee meant that they would be open until 10 pm. Then to correct it with desde diez de la manana just doens't make any sense. They also both said they couldn't think of a way to use "hasta" for "not until" but "no hasta" could be used depending on context. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7095 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 20 of 56 10 December 2010 at 9:58am | IP Logged | ||||||||
This "negative" usage of hasta by itself is well documented. Wordreference: (AmC, Col, Méx) (con valor negativo): será publicado ~ mayo it won't be published until May; RAE: adv. t. Am. Cen., Ec. y Méx. No antes de. Cierran hasta las nueve. Now, that's not to say it's ubiquitous where its use has been noted. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7095 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 21 of 56 10 December 2010 at 10:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Now that's an unusual definition if ever I've heard one.
If it's a "possible sentence" (regardless of the intention), then I fail to see how it can be grammatically wrong. Both examples had meaning, one of them was not what the speaker intended and one was not what the listener expected. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6003 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 22 of 56 10 December 2010 at 11:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||
If I mean to write "their" and I write "there", it is a spelling mistake, right? Even though both are possible words. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7095 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 23 of 56 10 December 2010 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
If we're talking about.. there is something grammatically wrong versus.. their is something grammatically wrong Both are possible words but only one is a grammatically correct sentence. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5373 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 24 of 56 10 December 2010 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Come on, now, that's out of context and you know it. The purpose of grammar isn't only to creating structures that exist, but to create meaningful structures. If a structure exists to express what you want to express and you fail to use it, instead opting for a different one with a different meaning, just how can you claim that's not a mistake? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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