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The concepting of noticing | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| hypersport Senior Member United States Joined 5873 days ago 216 posts - 307 votes  Studies: Spanish | Message 25 of 56 10 December 2010 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Even if technically you could find a way that "hasta" was used negatively, I've never heard it that way and neither have my two native Mexican friends.
Also, in the context that s.allard gave, it made NO sense with what followed. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6003 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 26 of 56 10 December 2010 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Leave aside grammar for a moment. Is there or is their not a spelling mistake in the second sentence? I think you'll agree that there is. My point is that it doesn't matter if the result of the mistake is a possible word or not -- it's still a spelling mistake because the author hasn't written the word he intended to write. I'm applying the same standards to grammar -- it doesn't matter if your mistake results in a possible sentence: if it doesn't express the meaning you intend, it is a grammatical mistake. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6003 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 27 of 56 10 December 2010 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Two isn't a very big sample set, and Mexico is quite a big country. I'm sure the people who write the dictionaries check quite thoroughly (you'd be amazed at the amount of work it takes to write a dictionary). Scotland is a much smaller country than Mexico and there are things that I say that people who grew up 50 miles from me might never have heard in their lives. I grew up not pluralising weights and measures (£3.50 = 3 pound 50, "he was six foot four and weighed 20 stone"), and I'm sure you would be able to find plenty of Scottish people who would swear blind that all Scottish people pluralise everything. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7095 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 28 of 56 10 December 2010 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Except your example mistake didn't result in a possible sentence it resulted in a grammatically incorrect one. Edited by Andy E on 10 December 2010 at 3:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7095 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 29 of 56 10 December 2010 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Ditto. I've generally found that dictionaries don't "technically" invent ways to include a usage - if it's common enough and long-lasting enough it's included, otherwise it isn't. If you'd bothered to look at the two excepts you would have noticed that Central America, Ecuador and Colombia are also mentioned in addition to Mexico. Edited by Andy E on 10 December 2010 at 3:35pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6003 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 30 of 56 10 December 2010 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
My example was a spelling mistake, and spelling creates a word, not a sentence. The rest of the sentence provides the context which shows us that the word, although a valid word, was not the correct one that the writer intended, and therefore a mistake. In the case of grammar, the mistake that s_allard gave as an example was a structurally possible sentence, but from the wider context (the conversation), the error was made apparent, in that it became clear that the produced sentence did not match the speaker's intended meaning. A sentence is made up of words, and analysis at the sentence-level reveals mistakes at the word-level that would otherwise go unnoticed. A conversation is made up of sentences, and analysis at the conversation-level reveals mistaked at the sentence-level that would otherwise go unnoticed. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7095 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 31 of 56 10 December 2010 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Ah yes, I can see where you're coming from now. In isolation - grammatically correct - in the wider context - grammatically incorrect because the structure chosen was incorrect. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5422 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 32 of 56 11 December 2010 at 8:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||
If the term "grammatically correct" proses a problem maybe we should use "syntactically correct" instead to designate an utterance that is formally acceptable. The key issue here is that the forms in question are formally correct and it is only some extraneous piece of information that allows to reinterpret the utterances according to their intended meaning. So, the forms are not mistaken. There is nothing wrong them. On the other hand, "their is nothing wrong with them" is syntactically wrong but perfectly understandable. Edited by s_allard on 11 December 2010 at 8:17am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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