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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5440 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes  Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 41 of 52 15 December 2010 at 9:25am | IP Logged | |||||
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You certainly don't have to go as far as Hegel to run into abstract terms and phrases
you can't clearly illustrate visually. There are way more mundane things that fall into this category. Let's take a look from a different angle: so, your hypothesis is '7000h of watching TV will get you to almost 100% comprehension'. That would mean that in countries where everything is subbed (so, no dubbed movies, TV serials etc. at all), the whole population should by now be able to understand English 100%. However, that's not case. Not even close. In Serbia everything is subbed, so people are exposed to English from their childhood. By the age of 25-30, everyone has put more than 7000h (and they even had subtitles and learnt English in school). Still, they are not even close to 100% comprehension. My mother has by now seen probably more than 10000h of South American telenovelas. Based on what you are saying she should be able to understand Spanish. Not at all :). I do know couple of people who had learnt Spanish by watching telenovelas, but the vast majority doesn't come even close. And that is even with subtitles. So listening and attentively watching the screen does not magically give you 100% comprehension. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| FuroraCeltica Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6857 days ago 1187 posts - 1427 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 42 of 52 15 December 2010 at 10:27am | IP Logged | |||||
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I think correct noun declension would be the least of your worries if you were in a Russian prison
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| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6667 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 43 of 52 15 December 2010 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
The magic comes if you watch something interesting (for whatever reason), you pay attention and you guess meanings WITHOUT any subtitles. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5775 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 44 of 52 15 December 2010 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
This is not meant to be magic. Of course if you are not paying attention you will not learn anything, that goes for WHATEVER method. I doubt the Spanish is more than background noise to your mother; in contrast someone trying to figure out what the heck is going on (without shortcuts like subtitles) is absolutely naturally paying attention at a level even the most disciplined learner would envy. The human brain is amazing at intuitively teasing out patterns, but it is a slow process, and the knowledge so obtained cannot easily be communicated the way explicit knowledge can, and the process naturally will not happen at all with things you are not paying attention to. Edited by Random review on 15 December 2010 at 7:12pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5440 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 45 of 52 15 December 2010 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
You guess the meaning, but without any feedback, you have no idea are you right or completely wrong. And without any structural way to test your conclusion, you will soon end up lost when it comes to more abstract things. So, question again: do you guys think that it is possible to learn absolutely anything from absolutely any kind of visual references? As for paying attention, I can see the opposite happening as well - if the task is too complex, too confusing (as it would be in this case), the brain can shut itself out and stop paying attention altogether. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5775 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 46 of 52 15 December 2010 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
When I first started watching Spanish TV I got almost nothing. In spite of the fact that I had a busy life I was still absolutely rapt in a way I never have been with courses. Gradually it started to make sense. If I were in a Russian prison I'm pretty sure I'd have been even more attentive to Russian TV. Now admittedly what we are talking about is far more complex (and I admitted he might need to go in with a few days' knowledge of Grammar), but I think (given that he'd have a LOT more time) it'd work. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5440 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 47 of 52 15 December 2010 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
If you allow him any kind of references and especially some previous knowledge of the language, I'm also happy to say that he has a chance. I'd say if you let him have Russian dictionary with him, he can't fail, not only in comprehension but in production as well (he could practice monologues once he is sure what he is saying). But without it, hardly. Just think about it, how would you learn anything watching self-reflecting monologues? Or obscure, "what is the meaning of all this?" dialogues? And Slavic culture is so packed with these stuff. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6667 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 48 of 52 15 December 2010 at 11:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Question:
Is it possible to achieve native understanding of an unrelated foreign language from scratch using TV, 7,000 hours, without any subtitles? Answer: Yes, it is. If you KEEP doing this because you like it, you will succeed. The big problem is to KEEP doing it. It is necessary to pay attention to the meanings and relax. It is necessary to let the brain do the work because our brain is designed to do it and the understanding will be a side-effect. It is slow, but sure. At the beginning will be noise, but it will begin to make sense after hours and hours. It will be easier with concrete words (hundreds of hours). You will need a lot of repetition in different contexts with abstract words and complex grammar structures (thousand of hours), but you will get it. On TV, you have self-reflecting monologues but I think a beginner will change to other channels...more visual. The problem with this TV method is having enough choices/opportunities to see the language in a lot of different contexts and to enjoy it. Edited by slucido on 15 December 2010 at 11:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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