Learning from non-natives (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Learning from non-natives
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

19 messages over 3 pages: 1 2 3

Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4638 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish, Guarani, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew	Message 17 of 19 14 August 2012 at 11:34pm \| IP Logged
	If it weren't for my native speaker friends, there is no doubt in my mind that Arabic and Persian would've been much more difficult to reach at a C1 and C2 level in each language. In the late 90s and the early 2000s, there were nearly no reliable resources for the Arabic dialects, even for Egyptian and Levantine. If I hadn't had my friends who spoke their native dialects (Egyptian, Moroccan, Syrian, Gulf, and so on), I wouldn't have been able to expose myself to each respective dialect and practice producing it on my own. In all, this is what made learning dialects well a slower process - not that they're so different from MSA or from one another, but the fact that there were few resources and ways to practice unless you had native friends or lived in an Arab country. Yes, diglossia and variations do contribute to the difficulties, but they're surprisingly surmountable - when you have the resources. For Persian, the case was similar. I had little access to Persian media and resources weren't great for getting past B2. It's true that many of the native speakers I've met didn't have knowledge of exactly "how" their languages worked, but they often still had an "idea" or were able to show me the mechanics of the spoken language more effectively. Despite this, non-natives can be helpful as well - they are usuaully aware of the difficulties and know the specifics. Even if they didn't have a "native" accent, the experiences were valuable. In all, I wouldn't avoid a non-native speaker - especially if that individual has achieved a higher level. 1 person has voted this message useful
tanya b Senior Member United States Joined 4778 days ago 159 posts - 518 votes Speaks: Russian	Message 18 of 19 15 August 2012 at 2:40am \| IP Logged
	I think for those who don't have the luxury of living in the TL country, it's a case of "beggars can't be choosers". With a language like Russian, there are so many non-Russian speakers of Russian in the US, you might as well make the most of it. Many people of Eurasia, from Uzbeks to Ukrainians, are avid watchers of Russian TV and seem thoroughly familiar with Russian culture, from sports stars to stand-up comedians so at least they have a frame of reference which I will never have. And fortunately most of them are reasonably well-educated. As for learning English, it is probably better to learn it from a non-native speaker who speaks it almost without an accent than from a native speaker with a heavy Jamaican or Cockney accent. 1 person has voted this message useful
Kartof Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5066 days ago 391 posts - 550 votes Speaks: English, Bulgarian, Spanish Studies: Danish	Message 19 of 19 15 August 2012 at 3:25am \| IP Logged
	I agree with the OP's sentiments. After years of Spanish lessons in school, I have to say that the best Spanish teacher I've had was actually Italian! She was much more capable of explaining the finer points of grammar and even took joy in understanding how the grammar operated, more so than native Spanish teachers. In addition, she could speak well in more than one accent of the language, possibly because she didn't have a native accent to fall back on. 1 person has voted this message useful

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Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4638 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish, Guarani, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew	Message 17 of 19 14 August 2012 at 11:34pm \| IP Logged
	If it weren't for my native speaker friends, there is no doubt in my mind that Arabic and Persian would've been much more difficult to reach at a C1 and C2 level in each language. In the late 90s and the early 2000s, there were nearly no reliable resources for the Arabic dialects, even for Egyptian and Levantine. If I hadn't had my friends who spoke their native dialects (Egyptian, Moroccan, Syrian, Gulf, and so on), I wouldn't have been able to expose myself to each respective dialect and practice producing it on my own. In all, this is what made learning dialects well a slower process - not that they're so different from MSA or from one another, but the fact that there were few resources and ways to practice unless you had native friends or lived in an Arab country. Yes, diglossia and variations do contribute to the difficulties, but they're surprisingly surmountable - when you have the resources. For Persian, the case was similar. I had little access to Persian media and resources weren't great for getting past B2. It's true that many of the native speakers I've met didn't have knowledge of exactly "how" their languages worked, but they often still had an "idea" or were able to show me the mechanics of the spoken language more effectively. Despite this, non-natives can be helpful as well - they are usuaully aware of the difficulties and know the specifics. Even if they didn't have a "native" accent, the experiences were valuable. In all, I wouldn't avoid a non-native speaker - especially if that individual has achieved a higher level. 1 person has voted this message useful
tanya b Senior Member United States Joined 4778 days ago 159 posts - 518 votes Speaks: Russian	Message 18 of 19 15 August 2012 at 2:40am \| IP Logged
	I think for those who don't have the luxury of living in the TL country, it's a case of "beggars can't be choosers". With a language like Russian, there are so many non-Russian speakers of Russian in the US, you might as well make the most of it. Many people of Eurasia, from Uzbeks to Ukrainians, are avid watchers of Russian TV and seem thoroughly familiar with Russian culture, from sports stars to stand-up comedians so at least they have a frame of reference which I will never have. And fortunately most of them are reasonably well-educated. As for learning English, it is probably better to learn it from a non-native speaker who speaks it almost without an accent than from a native speaker with a heavy Jamaican or Cockney accent. 1 person has voted this message useful
Kartof Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5066 days ago 391 posts - 550 votes Speaks: English, Bulgarian, Spanish Studies: Danish	Message 19 of 19 15 August 2012 at 3:25am \| IP Logged
	I agree with the OP's sentiments. After years of Spanish lessons in school, I have to say that the best Spanish teacher I've had was actually Italian! She was much more capable of explaining the finer points of grammar and even took joy in understanding how the grammar operated, more so than native Spanish teachers. In addition, she could speak well in more than one accent of the language, possibly because she didn't have a native accent to fall back on. 1 person has voted this message useful