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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6759 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes  Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 1 of 11 22 November 2006 at 6:38am | IP Logged | ||
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I just read today that the name for Turkey in Turkish, Türkiye, disobeys Turkish vowel harmony rules because it's a loanword — from the Italian Turchia.
(The original word used by the Ottomans was Türkiya.) Are there any other languages that have borrowed their own language or country names from other languages? Now that I think of it, the Japanese words for their country and language are very old borrowings from Chinese. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| lady_skywalker Triglot Senior Member Netherlands aspiringpolyglotblog Joined 6881 days ago 909 posts - 942 votes Speaks: Spanish, English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, French, Dutch, Italian | Message 2 of 11 22 November 2006 at 7:04am | IP Logged | ||
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Does it disobey vowel harmony? I thought the dotted u, i, and e belonged to the same 'group'. Then again, I haven't really studied Turkish so I might be talking a load of nonsense. ;)
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| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6759 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 3 of 11 22 November 2006 at 7:30am | IP Logged | ||
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Apparently it's the e at the end that is misbehaving, but I don't know much about Turkish either. :)
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| lady_skywalker Triglot Senior Member Netherlands aspiringpolyglotblog Joined 6881 days ago 909 posts - 942 votes Speaks: Spanish, English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, French, Dutch, Italian | Message 4 of 11 22 November 2006 at 7:32am | IP Logged | ||
We should send that naughty 'e' to the corner. ;) Hopefully one of our Turkish speakers can explain what the problem is...Now I'm curious. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6759 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 5 of 11 22 November 2006 at 7:50am | IP Logged | ||
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Sorry, my mistake. It's the i that doesn't quite belong; apparently Turkish sometimes has secondary harmony with rounded/unrounded vowels, and the i and ü don't get along. Again, I'm just summarizing a conversation I read; I don't know Turkish myself, and the whole harmony thing sounds somewhat mystical.
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| Marc Frisch Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6656 days ago 1001 posts - 1169 votes Speaks: German*, French, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Persian, Tamil | Message 6 of 11 22 November 2006 at 8:01am | IP Logged | ||
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Look at this page for a good description of Turkish vowel harmony.
I quote: # Back vowels are followed by back vowels, front vowels are followed by front vowels. Do not cross the back/front boundary. # Unrounded vowels are followed by unrounded vowels. # A rounded vowel may be followed by a mix of rounded closed and unrounded open vowels. In most textbooks you'll find only the first one. In our case, the word 'Türkiye' contains only front vowels, so the front/back vowel harmony is satisfied. It's actually not the 'e' that's wrong, but the 'i' (unrounded closed) which isn't supposed to appear after 'ü' (rounded) according to rule 3. A more striking example is the Greek loanword 'istanbul', in which the front/back vowel harmony is not satisfied (i and a in the same word) as well as the second rule (rounded u after unrounded a). Edited by Marc Frisch on 22 November 2006 at 8:06am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Timur Newbie Turkey Joined 6568 days ago 10 posts - 10 votes | Message 7 of 11 22 November 2006 at 8:57am | IP Logged | ||
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I wanto to explain, but i know English a little :)
If are you understand, i try to explain.What is question? Turkey, in Turkish "Türkiye" ,Türkiye word, come from Italian Turchia yes, but some idea Türkiye comes form Arabic "Turkiyya" i don't know definite.Bu rgeneral opinion Türkiye comes Italian Turchia. In Turkish icnlude a lot of loanwords, but this words mostly unnecessary. Sadly, in Turkey, Turkish never been important, Ottoman Empire was admirer Arab and Persian, therefore they use a lot of Arabic and Persian words, but there are all this words in Turkish. Sadly today, this admirers there are in Turkey,and there are admirers of Europe, they are use English and French words :) sadly, poor Turkish. But there are persons like me, I and persons,they are thinking like me, advocade Turkish words, because all loandword in Turkish, (Arabic,Persian,French etc.) there are equivalent Turkish. Summarizing, Italian Turchia-Türkiye is unnecessary, it's Türkish "Türkeli" in Turkish "El" means in English "Land" , Türkeli=Turkland. I hope, we depurate Turkish, i and other Turkish advocaters try to this. If i writed very long, sorry. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| davithet Newbie GeorgiaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5423 days ago 3 posts - 3 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 8 of 11 10 January 2010 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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Timur I think you are right about EL so we have this word in my native Georgian language ELI so maybe some ELI means ground of live places . so which EL means LOCALIZATION
for example Georgian language SPARSELI- (Persian ) SparsELI localization from Persian man or woman. so if we say Turki without ELI that means peoples who lived and there is no really own native speakers people and they are speak only Turkish language speakers. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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