Learning a language just to read? (Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies) Language Learning Forum

Learning a language just to read?
Tags: Passive \| Reading \| German
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Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies

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Sprachprofi
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Message 17 of 33

25 November 2010 at 4:47pm | IP Logged

divexo wrote:

Are there any good books like the one mentioned for German to be able to
read French or Italian?

"French for Reading" is the same author's take on French. I haven't been able to evaluate
it personally though. I'd love to get my hands on any of that series.
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Andy E
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Message 18 of 33

25 November 2010 at 11:38pm | IP Logged

Sprachprofi wrote:

I'd love to get my hands on any of that series.

The French one is still in print:

French for Reading

For myself, I'd dearly love an Italian equivalent and I'd pick up the German one if it wasn't so expensive.

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argentum
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Message 19 of 33

25 November 2010 at 11:59pm | IP Logged

Not otherwise attracted to German, I would very much like to learn it just to read the original works by Hermann
Hesse and Erich Maria Remarque.
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BartoG
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Message 20 of 33

26 November 2010 at 8:57am | IP Logged

Some time ago, I worked partway through Pharr's Homeric Greek. If memory serves, it specifically instructed you to memorize certain passages and to read others aloud. Even though it dealt with a dead language in which you'd never strike up a conversation, the author understood the importance of the language having some life to it.

If you're reading German for technical matter, comprehension is enough. But if you're reading it to appreciate literature, then you need feeling as well as comprehension. This doesn't mean you have to learn modern conversational German - that's not how they talk in Goethe anyway - but it does mean you have to provide for getting that inner voice that echoes language in your mind when you read a striking passage, or are trying to get a sense of just what the author is trying to say when something is phrased in an unusual manner. In this sense, I think Doviende's recommendation for audio books is especially important. If you're learning to read and on your own, you need to make sure you're hearing language in your mind, not looking at letters on a page. The audio book will not just keep you moving forward; by tone of voice and by pacing, the narrators will help you pick up on things that you might not get if you only read the language.
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Teango
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Message 21 of 33

26 November 2010 at 11:53pm | IP Logged

INTENSIVE LISTENING AND READING

When I start learning a new language, my initial goal is to uncover enough passive vocabulary and rudimentary grammar to enable me to use and enjoy native resources on their own. If I can get the gist and much of the detail down comfortably, without having to resort to a dictionary or additional guidance, it's a fantastic feeling.

I've had plenty of fun reaching this stage in 3 different languages over the past year (and hopefully a 4th by the end), using the study-and-click method. The aim each time has been to sustain a 95-98% reading level with average to moderately difficult literature, as this is the level where I believe things start to become more comfortable and where research points to as falling in the range i+1 to i+0.5 (i.e. the range where I should be able to pick up new unknown words and expressions naturally from context).

EXTENSIVE LISTENING AND READING

The next goal is then to make sure i) all this sticks in my head, and ii) I get a good feel for the structure, word order, collocations, intonation and flow of natural expressions, thematic paragraphs and discursive dynamics. This comes through lots and lots of natural review - i.e. massive exposure to enjoyable stories. I do this through listening and reading in the target language to anywhere in the range of 500,000 to (ideally) 1000,000 words (about 10-20 books, depending on their size). This takes time, but it's worth it in the end.

I find it very important to listen actively to as much as possible during this stage, as this helps me pronounce the words more acurately in my head, and when I eventually come to recall certain words or phrases in conversation, I often hear the voice or expression clearly in my mind and have a better chance of shadowing more closely to my memory of how the native speaker pronounced it originally.

If you can do these 2 steps, then you'll be well on your way to tucking a whole colourful library of books in German under your wing, and all without the need of any additional support or too many wrinklings of your brow in the process.

NOTE ON READING LEVEL

For German, I'd thoroughly recommend starting with something easier and repetitive in terms of vocabulary, like Hesse's "Siddhartha" (or even something along the lines of "Der kleine Prinz" in the very beginning), before progressing to stories by Schlink, Süskind and Kafka. As for Thomas Mann, well, he's on a whole other level (trust me, my initial excursions into his novels were painful because I just wasn't ready...it's never much fun for the uninitiated to dive into the German equivalent of Galsworthy when first starting out). So start off easy, and then try to up the difficulty a little when things become too comfortable for a stretch, much like pushing weights or hitting cardio down the gym as a beginner.

Good luck and I hope you reach your goal!

Edited by Teango on 28 November 2010 at 1:44am
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slucido
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Message 22 of 33

27 November 2010 at 10:58am | IP Logged

Don't you think Assimil is a good method to learn to read? I think it's only necessary to do several quickly passive waves and then start to read native books.

Readers plus its audio reader can be a good alternative too.

I think how professor Arguelles has gone about learning to read literature in foreign languages is useful here:

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=245

ProfArguelles wrote:

Since you find this helpful, I will give some more details of the way that I have gone about learning to read literature in Russian and other foreign languages.

The first step is to use actual bilingual texts, with the target language on one page and a translation on the facing page. I keep one index finger under one sentence, the other under its counterpart, and I slowly and carefully compare everything. I am not really "reading" at this point, but rather analyzing the language using interesting reading matter.

The second step is to use "readers," i.e., books that contain annotated excerpts of literature with explanatory notes and, most importantly, vocabulary and an index that is specially keyed to these texts so that finding the meaning of unknown words is much easier than it is by using a regular dictionary. I usually make enlarged photocopies of the text first and then write the meaning of all new words directly in the space underneath them. I then read and reread these texts many times.

The third step is begin reading "easy" literature unaided, i.e., material for native children or adolescents.

The fourth step is what I described in an earlier post, namely using not bilingual texts but an original text and a translation in tandem, reading first a portion of the translation, then the original itself. What portion? If all I can handle is a paragraph or a page at a time, then it is better to keep working with actual bilingual texts. At this stage, as I wrote before, it is initially best to read a full chapter at a time. At first I may have to read them back to back, but I find that it is better not to do so, but rather to read the original later in the day. Eventually, I read the entire translated work first, then the original. I never use a dictionary at this stage, but just keep on reading. With Russian, I went through most of Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Turgenev, and Checkov this way, as well as some Oblomov and Gogol. I then passed the "airplane test," as I call it, taking a novel that I had not read in translation before with me as my sole companion on an intercontinental flight, and reading it with interest, enjoyment, and understanding the whole time.

I cannot stress strongly enough how important it is to avoid using a dictionary until you have gotten past these stages. Doing so harms you more than it helps you, for it slows you down too much and breaks your concentration. I have always found that using a dictionary is only profitable after I have gotten past this fourth step. Again, I generally try to look up only "known unknowns," i.e., words that I have seen often enough to recognize them ("there's that damn word again--what the hell does it mean?") or even better actually remember them and say to myself, not necessarily while reading, but simply while ruminating, "I know that I don't know what X means--it seems like it means such and such, but I wonder..." When I finally look it up, I never forget it, whereas if I use a dictionary too early, I find myself looking up the same word repeatedly.

Edited by slucido on 27 November 2010 at 10:59am
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Huliganov
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Message 23 of 33

27 November 2010 at 7:28pm | IP Logged

I did Old Norse as a read-only language, which means I'm going to look pretty supine if I should chance to die with a sword in my hand and end up in Valhalla.

Joking apart, if you want to read these authors then I find the Novellen of Mann are really remarkable. "Tod in Venedig" is perhaps my favorite, unless it's "Tonio Kroeger". Don't miss Stefan Zweig with a broadly similar style - his "Schachnovelle" is a rare treat and can be read in a day.

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divexo
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Message 24 of 33

27 November 2010 at 9:10pm | IP Logged

Cheers for the French suggestion will check it out in time!

Teango wrote:

Sorry if i missed it, but how do you achieve this?
Specifically, which languages did you do of this 3 and what methods to get to this high reading level?

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