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Katz vs The Korean | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6940 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes  Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 17 of 22 20 October 2010 at 4:03am | IP Logged | |||||
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I've noticed that Khatz's emphasis lately has changed from 'don't do anything that's not fun' to 'do this and trick yourself into believing it's fun'. For example, make rote memorization addictive with SRS and timeboxing. Study the motivations behind why you procrastinate, play video games, and waste time at various websites, and apply that same motivation to language learning (or whatever your current goal is). He studies the psychology of addictive behavior and avoidance behavior, and suggests how we can use that to make ourselves more 'productive' while still being the undisciplined, ADD people that many of us are at heart. :D
This aspect of his site has changed my life. I always wanted to learn languages, and I really enjoy it, but I had this really strong idea that studying was something you had to buckle down and do seriously - do it right or not at all. So much of the time, I would avoid it like I would avoid any huge project or homework assignment, and would only put in a few long sessions a week. AJATT taught me to throw away my perfectionist tendencies and start thinking, 'what can I do right here, right now, even if it's small and seems inconsequential?' This has resulted in me playing around with my target languages (yes, 'playing around' includes grammar study and rote memorization, at small chunks at a time when I feel like it) for hours each day... I can't even count how many hours, because it's a constant way of being instead of a 'session' like I used to do. Taking away the pressure to be 'serious' and 'do it right' has actually resulted me in getting more serious and higher quality studying done every day. It doesn't sound like The Korean's attitude would be very constructive for me, because I used to think like that all the time: I'd give myself pep talks about how I have to just tough it out and stop making excuses, this is my dream, I won't get anywhere if I don't spend more time on it, I'm indebted to the many people who've helped me and being lazy about it would be a poor way to show my gratitude, etc. I realize these things all too well. But thinking this way doesn't result in anything for me, except a bunch of guilt and a very clean room (to make myself feel less guilty about avoiding the task at hand). I suspect that the crowd to whom Khatz's message is more appealing is the 'never used to do my homework' crowd. Many of who have been there can attest that it has little to do with laziness or a desire to do only fun things (after all, watching marathons of daytime TV or compulsively checking the same forum you checked earlier today cannot really be described as 'fun'). I'm also that type, and I consider myself a perfectionist with a medium-to-high sense of personal responsibility. :) to leosmith: It sounds almost inhuman to be able to endure spending so much time on a 'hobby' which you don't enjoy or think is fun! If I had that kind of discipline, I think I'd become a master pianist even though I don't enjoy playing the piano. Or maybe I'd take a second, unpaid job for the experience and social aspects. I really envy you for having this much discipline, but you must realize that most people can't be held to these same standards. After all, some of us even have motivational problems when it comes to doing things we DO enjoy! Edited by Lucky Charms on 20 October 2010 at 4:24am 10 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6541 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 18 of 22 22 October 2010 at 1:28am | IP Logged | |||||
Oh, I have fun. But it doesn't always have to be fun. And it's not good to try to convince young learners that everything has to be fun. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| The Real CZ Senior Member United States Joined 5640 days ago 1069 posts - 1495 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 19 of 22 22 October 2010 at 3:16am | IP Logged | |||||
The Korean said something similar. Not everything is fun. Me personally, I hate learning languages. Detest it. But I love the benefits of it, because I can understand that new Oustider song better, watch a drama with Toda Erika in it without thinking "she's really hot" the whole time and understand some of what's being said. Outside of the "studying" is where I have fun with language, not while actually studying it. Edited by The Real CZ on 22 October 2010 at 4:00am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5972 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 20 of 22 23 October 2010 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
I've read pretty much everything Katz has come up with in the last couple of years, even in the beginning when I could hardly understand written English and had to use a dictionary all the way through his site (I've never come to like his sense of humour though; it's just that I find his ideas irresistibly interesting — that got me thinking that much of my English comes from him, which is kinda... frightening). After all that time, If I were to draw a conclusion or sum up his position, this all-should-be-fun motto and the let's-instil-that-into-the-most-vulnerable-brains, sort of world domination plan, would be the last ideas coming to my mind. Actually, it's a badly twisted way to look at it. Or maybe it's just that I've always looked at AJATT in the context of the input-based learning ecosystem: Antimoon, Krashen, Assimil, Kaufmann, L&R, shadowing, ALG, etc. When you look at the whole picture, all the though edges get smoother — always have fun, always take things seriously, never speak until you're ready, always read aloud, never read aloud, do sentences, do simple words, etc. One of the first things the self-learner has to learn is actually how to learn. It's something you should ideally do as you deal with your first foreign language. All that said, I have the nagging sensation that you are a bit biased against this whole package of input-based techniques, or at least, against using them as a way to kick off with a language. What I don't understand is if that's because: 1) they are promoted a lot on the evil Internet, as opposed to being promoted on other media such as printed magazines or academic papers. 2) they seem to have a lot of followers and growing, as opposed to having little support among the language learning community. 3) People using those techniques often despise alternatives like learning grammar rules or enrolling in traditional language learning classes. 4) They don't work or are less effective than other alternatives. I'd never heard of the Korean before and I'm just having a quick look at the link you posted (I'm not specially inclined to read someone talking in third person). No need to say that I'm definitely more on the katz's side, but I can also relate with some aspects of the Korean's method, so I voted it's a draw, especially because I can't see the point of this diligent versus nonchalant debate. Why it has to be one or the other? Katz's posts are a reaction against some ideas that most of us has got drilled into our minds: you've always have to be serious, you've got to use will power to force yourself, etc. So he "teaches" you how to deal with both the task at hand, especially a long-term task like language learning, and some ideas you may have about how you are supposed to tackle it. I mean ideas that sometimes are just a way of shooting yourself on the foot. Trying to turn all that upside down — you should avoid doing anything that's not fun — is do idiotic that I won't comment further on that. Some people are always gonna get the wrong end of the stick, so what? Edited by Javi on 25 October 2010 at 8:50am 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6573 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 21 of 22 23 October 2010 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I haven't actually read AJATT and I can't access The Korean (it's on blogspot, which is blocked in China), but what I've gathered from their positions out of this thread, Katz sounds a lot more like me than The Korean does. I can't say that every moment of language learning is ecstatic fun, but I'm never bored or frustrated when I study. If I don't feel like it, I never "buckle down"; I do something else. Despite this attitude, I can study for many hours every day, thanks to the kind of methods it seems that Katz is using. I also feel I'm making rapid progress.
Maybe it's simply that I enjoy studying languages. People who don't can certainly still learn a language, and they might need to use methods like the ones proposed by The Korean, but I don't think they can become polyglots, unless they have a massive masochist streak. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6541 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 22 of 22 25 October 2010 at 2:13am | IP Logged | |||||
You nailed me. But it wasn't 1, 2, 3 or 3. It was 3. So what? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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