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Michael K.’s Esperanto log | ||
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| Michael K. Senior Member United States Joined 5671 days ago 568 posts - 886 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Esperanto | Message 9 of 74 01 April 2011 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Thanks again, Jinx. Yes, when you look at it in that way it is more positive.
The article is titled "Farewell to Auxiliary Languages" and was posted February 24, 1997. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Michael K. Senior Member United States Joined 5671 days ago 568 posts - 886 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Esperanto | Message 10 of 74 02 April 2011 at 8:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I thought a lot about Esperanto this week, and got a little bit of studying in.
I've started using the TYS from the '60s and completed the first 3 chapters, and a little bit of chapter 4. The book says the first 5 chapters are for getting a basic understanding of the language, so I want to try to understand everything in the first 5 chapters by next week. I only did one lesson in La Puzlo Esperanto on lernu, so I'd like to do more of that. I may not complete all the tasks, just enough so I can start the correspondance course Ana Pana, like the welcome e-mail suggests. I was thinking about completing the 10 lesson correspondance course that I signed up for around Christmas 2009, or at least doing the first lesson. I have a test this Friday so I'll be studying for that, but I don't think it will have too much impact on my studies, except not wanting to study another subject other than Gerontology. I'm only taking one 3 credit course this semester, when I probably should have taken another one or two. Like I said earlier, I'm off to work in a month and a half so I'll have less time to study, plus the lack of privacy that comes with having roommates and being tired from working seasonally in a warehouse. Next semester I'm taking 2 5 credit classes and, although it won't be a full load, it will still be demanding, being in class 4 days a week and working on the weekends. I know, most people do those things anyway, but when you've only got one class and a lot of free time, losing all that free time is a change. I'm sure I'll still be able to study languages, although maybe not as much as I'd like. I guess that's all for now. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Enriquee Triglot Groupie United States esperantofre.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5277 days ago 51 posts - 125 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Esperanto, English | Message 11 of 74 03 April 2011 at 6:28am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Some mixed comments about Esperanto
I have been speaking Esperanto during 51 years and I never heard the word "politics (of Esperanto)" from an Esperanto speaker. About other "planned languages". There are more than 1000 of them. I don't have time to learn them all. If you want to know more about that, read the book "In the Land of Invented Languages" by Arika Okrent. I borrowed it from the Library. Remember that planned languages were created for many different purposes. I learned Esperanto because its purpose is communication, and it was made to be easy to learn. I believe that all Esperanto speakers should respect Volapuk as a pioneer common language, and for providing many members to the first Esperanto associations. I suppose that most Esperanto speakers ignore Ido. Ido doesn't deserve the respect of Esperanto speakers, because Ido is the product of treason from people whom Zamenhof trusted. They were good Esperanto speakers trying to impose their own reforms for personal benefit. Zamenhof worked hard on his language without asking anything for himself. Ido is Esperanto reformed, not improved. The few active Ido speakers don't ignore the Esperanto speakers. They keep trying to convince us that Ido is better than Esperanto. I have told some of them, that they will have a much wider audience if they try to hit the people that don't speak Esperanto. But there is an Ido society, that once in a while gives some money for Esperanto projects!!! >he says Idists basically want Esperanto to die and >Esperantists basically want Ido to die. I never heard an Esperanto speaker mention this. Some Ido activists search Esperanto speakers. Some of the Ido invitations are written in Esperanto. The few times I chatted with somebody that claimed to be an Ido activist, the language used was Esperanto. I could understand some Ido ... I cannot speak or write it. There is no cult, no religion in Esperanto. Most Esperanto speakers don't visit Esperanto conventions. There are still associations around the world that meet regularly. Most Esperanto speakers don't participate. If all the time used to discuss about Esperanto were used to learn Esperanto, the number of Esperanto speakers would be much bigger now. Esperanto ... is it easy to learn? YES. It is easy to learn. I was able to speak Esperanto in my first meeting, two months after I started to learn Esperanto by myself, with the help of just one book. I needed many, many years of learning English to get to that same level. My book, in Spanish, was the same kind as "Teach Yourself Esperanto", even if TYS is more complete. The goal of studying Esperanto should be some fluency, not to "speak correct Esperanto". Which is the proportion of English speakers that "speak correct English"? I don't calculate the time needed to learn Esperanto in months or years. I count hours. Among my students, most of those that complete the basic course, do that in less than 20 hours. Then they are ready to read some Esperanto and understand the instructions for the second level course which is all in Esperanto. A total of 100 hours including practice should be enough to get some fluency. When demotivated ... just keep going ahead. Don't stop to learn every little detail. When you complete a basic course you have much better idea how the language works and becomes easier to understand the details ... even if you never learn all of them. >There are individuals that will never learn Esperanto ... Yes. Language learning is not for every one. But if you live during a long time in an environment where Esperanto is the main language, you will also learn it. Yes, there are some places like that. But to learn a language, you must want to learn that language. I always ask my students to chose one basic course and stick to just that one course! Finish one course before starting another ... and practice when you can. Practice: read, listen to, write, talk, chat, watch videos. If you are tired to start a studying session, watch a video or listen to pod casts. Who learned Esperanto or why: About 2000 people in the world learned Esperanto as one of their first languages, from their parents, at home, from the moment they were born, including the financier George Soros, and the Polgar sisters, world champions of chess. Most other people learned Esperanto only because they wanted to learn Esperanto. In Hungary many students learn Esperanto to complete the foreign language required to get a diploma. Most of them study to pass the test, but don't go on to use Esperanto. They elect Esperanto because they know that they can pass the test after much less study time than other languages. In China they teach Esperanto in some schools and universities. In 2004, in Beijing, I met a girl that was studying Esperanto in the university in a group of 7 students. They were promised jobs if they could learn Esperanto. In 2009 I met 2 of these ladies, at the offices of China Radio International, in Beijing, where they work preparing the Esperanto programs and as radio announcers. I use English because I learned it and helps me to communicate with people around me. I use Esperanto because I learned it and helps me to communicate with people around the world. Enrique 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jinx Triglot Senior Member Germany reverbnation.co Joined 5635 days ago 1085 posts - 1879 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Catalan, Dutch, Esperanto, Croatian, Serbian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish, Yiddish | Message 12 of 74 03 April 2011 at 10:49pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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(I found the article, Michael, thanks! A very interesting read.)
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6381 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 13 of 74 15 April 2011 at 5:36am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Esperanto has more written and spoken content than anyone could consume in several lifetimes. It doesn't rival that of the most prolific languages, and not every subject area is equally well represented, but I wouldn't say there's a lack, per se. There are perhaps tens of thousands of books (I believe UEA currently has about 4000 in stock for orders, and many others are out of print or otherwise not sold by UEA), and over 100,000 wikipedia articles. More high-quality content is certainly good - but there's already a surprisingly high amount.
From a "languages for the fun of it" perspective, that ideology is horrible. For people who care most about communication/IALs, it makes more sense - language fragmentation and dispersal of limited efforts come at a heavy cost. Personally, I'm happy to have many languages thrive - but "one language to rule them all" can be advocated by well-meaning people, and for some well-founded reasons.
People disagree with each other. Most Ido speakers know at least some Esperanto, to the best of my knowledge. Most Esperanto speakers I've heard say anything about Ido have been fairly neutral about the language itself, though people are sometimes a bit more bitter about the betrayal which led to Ido. I've asked someone to speak to me in Ido before, because I understood it better than any other language he spoke. I've also had friendly discussions with people who speak Volapük or Lojban, and little/no Esperanto. In general, the Esperanto speakers I've dealt with personally who care at all about other conlangs have been fairly positive about them - especially Toki Pona. That said, I sometimes find the anti-Esperanto sentiment of people who dislike it and support other conlangs grating - the phrase "one language to rule them all" does rub me the wrong way. On the gripping hand, for a humorous take on 'Esperanto as the language of evil bullies', watch the short film "Conlang" and check out Uscaniv.
I don't see much politics in the links. The first is a guy who's gotten tired of a hobby and of hanging around with people who get into repetitive arguments related to it. In his shoes, I would probably give up on IALs as well. I think the problem, though, isn't with IALs in particular... it's with getting sucked into a group of people who have tedious and counterproductive discussions. That can poison any topic. The second link does have a lot of nonsense (mixed in with some accurate advice). Most of it seems pretty non-political too, though. I've never seen Unilang as being religiously in favor of Esperanto (and, on any website, a few people being religious about something doesn't mean that most people on the site will share that viewpoint or be competent at that something/in accordance with an ideology that they don't even hold/etc). Lots of Esperanto learning material *is* annoying - it probably is partially a reflection of how much of it is produced by hobbyists, rather than professionals. That said, a lot of it is excellent and not gratingly bubbly. Going to a convention is good advice, though - it's much like the advice "go to the country where X is spoken" for national languages.
Judging Esperanto speakers or IAL proponents by newsgroup and mailinglist flamewars is like judging Americans based on (insert your favorite hate group, disliked minority political affiliation, cult, conspiracy theory, or youtube video of a reality TV show where an adult can't do something you'd expect of a 5th grader ... here).
It's a term used in a wide enough variety of ways that I'm not sure I assume much about what's meant when I come across it. There are all the points you mention above, but also quite a few others. Internally to Esperanto, there are debates about neutrality, Raumism, etc. Externally, there are everything from political efforts to promote Esperanto (from the League of Nations to schools in various nations on various continents), to political efforts to squash Esperanto (it's been illegal in several countries, and people have also been killed for speaking it in several countries - most notably Germany/German-occupied areas and the former USSR). There are people who promote it as the solution to all the world's problems, and those who dismiss it as a conspiracy (whether of foreigners, spies, or other groups varies) - needless to say, both camps are deluded.
There's quite a bit in Esperanto by Japanese authors. I rather like the series "Raportoj el Japanio". It's written by a Japanese teacher of English, who writes in the first book that it would have been impossible for him to write the books in English, as he doesn't write the language well enough. His Esperanto contains a fair number of errors (don't try to model yours off it or use it for intensive reading), but is quite readable, and the content is quite good. The history of Japanese authors writing directly in Esperanto goes back about a century.
Yes.
Yes, and you'll find many Esperanto speakers who like other conlangs. I'd still say they're a minority, but they're a much bigger minority than you'd find among the general population.
I know both sides of that. I became conversational about 3 weeks after I decided to properly learn the language. A couple years later, I'm still learning nuances and vocabulary, and don't always use every language feature correctly. I've bumped Esperanto up to 'advanced fluency' in my profile, but I can't write like an Academy (of Esperanto) member, and in groups consisting of native Esperanto speakers and UEA-estraroj I feel like a stumbling komencanto - I can follow everything, but feel comparatively tongue-tied and graceless in my use of the language (unlike when I'm with typical groups of fluent speakers). Esperanto is an incredibly powerful, flexible, beautiful, and poetic language, and I'm still bumbling by in expressing myself via straightforward prose.
Glad you're having fun.
They have a point. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Michael K. Senior Member United States Joined 5671 days ago 568 posts - 886 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Esperanto | Message 14 of 74 22 April 2011 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Thanks, everyone, for their take on what I've written, especially Volte & Enrique. It's very interesting to hear what much more experienced Esperantists have to say, and I'm glad to hear that many Esperantists enjoy & appreciate other IALs.
I'll try not to discuss other IALs or "politics" (whether it exists or not) anymore on this thread. Yes, Enrique, I actually borrowed "In the Land of Invented Languages" from the library last week, and have read the two introductory chapters and about Esperanto and Klingon. It's a very interesting read, and I'm glad that a linguist is looking at conlangs seriously, although 2 reviewers on Amazon gave bad reviews because they didn't think it treated conlangs fairly, and maybe they have a point in some cases (referring to conlangers as "mad dreamers" and saying conlangs have "a history of failure" is bound to get some conlangers upset, although later on she says Esperanto is successful in its own way), but all in all I thought it was fair. There have been a lot of threads with information on Esperanto on this forum in the past week or so, and I have learned a lot about Esperanto. My favorite link is: http://remush.be/rebuttal/ It's by a native French-speaking Esperantist (from Belgium, I guess) who responds to several criticisms of Esperanto, and it's very thorough. One thing he said was that, although there are several IALs, Esperanto is both the oldest and most successful to date, despite any weaknesses. It's like what Arika Okrent said in "Invented Languages" where she met an Interlinguist at an Esperanto conference. He said that Interlingua is a better language, but that he has no one to speak it with. I also read a lot of arguments by the late Don Harlow, which many of them are quoted by the French-speaking Esperantist above. Anyway, thanks once again for the responses, and sorry I took so long to respond. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jinx Triglot Senior Member Germany reverbnation.co Joined 5635 days ago 1085 posts - 1879 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Catalan, Dutch, Esperanto, Croatian, Serbian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish, Yiddish | Message 15 of 74 23 April 2011 at 10:52pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I haven't actually read "In the Land of Invented Languages," so I'm hesitant to criticize it, but...
Arika Okrent gave a lecture (partially promoting that book) here at my university about two weeks ago, which I attended. Although she seems like a nice and widely-read person who has a mostly-unbiased approach to conlangs, I noticed two separate and rather basic inaccuracies in her forty-minute presentation. Not very encouraging. Just letting you know... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Michael K. Senior Member United States Joined 5671 days ago 568 posts - 886 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Esperanto | Message 16 of 74 24 April 2011 at 12:23am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Thanks, Jinx. Yes, I think one of the reviewers said that there was some misinformation in the book. Well, that's an understatement, the reviewer said it was FILLED with misinformation. Of course, just because someone has a lot of knowledge in an area doesn't mean they'll get everything right all the time.
Could you please tell me what the inaccuracies are? I still have the book for another 6 days and can renew it, so I could look for those inaccuracies in the book. *** Right now I've decided to set aside the TYS and lernu to focus on a correspondance course and a course on YouTube. I've sent 4 lessons in to be corrected and have only had minor mistakes so far, such as using la or adding -n when I shouldn't. I think lesson 5 will be the first time I butcher the language, since now we're getting into correlatives, and, although regular, are difficult for me. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions I've had about Esperanto: just because it's regular doesn't mean it's easy. The second resource I'm using now was a resource my tutor sent me in a list of Esperanto links. It's a DVD course on YouTube called "La Pasporto al la Tuta Mondo." It follows Ruselo Sxafisto (Shepherd), and his plush sxafo (sheep), as they visit the Bonvolo (Goodwill) family while traveling on the Pasporta Servo. It's completely in Esperanto, and I can understand most of it. I watched the fourth and fifth parts today, and they're starting to get into the correlatives as well. It may be a bit silly and low-budget educational TV, but I think it's a pretty good way to learn Esperanto, or at least hearing it spoken. That's all for now. I'm still enjoying myself, even if it is getting a bit difficult right now. Edited by Michael K. on 24 April 2011 at 12:23am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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