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Esperanto’s benefit for language learners | ||
Tags: Esperanto | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7160 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes  20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 17 of 78 15 April 2010 at 2:50am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Levi, that last bit where you state that you don't see the problem of encouraging others to reap the benefits of the learning experience is an important part of the matter and why so many threads about the pros and cons Esperanto devolve into pissing-matches between otherwise cool-headed, educated folks. Some time ago, Sprachprofi likened her boosting of Esperanto to me to a case where if one knows some recipe for a delicious cake, why not share it? I think that what gets forgotten is that if the sharing is unsolicited, it looks odd (surprisingly or unsurprisingly depending on your point of view). For my part I had never been interested enough in Esperanto, and Sprachprofi's reasoning came off to me as something closer to a sales pitch. Few people like to act (or admit acting) on a sales pitch for fear of being seen as gullible or incapable of independent reflection/thought. If I were to use Sprachprofi's analogy and put out unsolicited boosting or testimonials for Hungarian (my favourite language), many people would understandably (and rightfully) think that I am at least: i) insecure (I want to validate my choice to study Hungarian by increasing the number of people learning it), ii) a Hungarian nationalist, iii) not "all there" mentally, iv) a salesman who's trying to unload Rosetta Stone courses for Hungarian ;-) The altruism inherent in Sprachprofi's analogy seems incongruous. What's more is that I've noticed that newbies on the forum start their threads by asking us veterans which language(s) to learn often in reference to a "short-list" of their own. People want at least some control over the choice of language to study even if they are receptive to others' advice. I've never met many people who relished mandatory or externally-imposed learning of anything be it a foreign language, trigonometry or piano-playing. Likewise a newbie probably wouldn't appreciate being told to study a language which he or she hasn't even considered just because some strangers on an internet forum are going on about all of their good experiences with it. It's one thing if I were to tout the benefits of Hungarian upon being asked by someone about my experiences. It's another if I were to initiate a conversation using something amounting to an unsolicited testimonial which would be more appropriate for a sales pitch. 9 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7148 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 18 of 78 15 April 2010 at 3:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Cordelia, I think the idea that English-speakers are negative toward Esperanto while Europeans are positive may be somewhat inaccurate, especially as judged by the comments in these forums. First, it seems to me that the overwhelming majority of ALL posters on these forums, and not just those on Esperanto, are native speakers of English, and so it's only natural that English-speakers would be strongly represented among the "non-fans" of Esperanto.
Secondly, it strikes me that English-speakers have also been quite heavily represented among those speaking in favor of Esperanto as well, which again reflects, I think, the overall HTLAL "population", but also serves to invalidate, at least in my eyes, the suggestion that it's simply the "Anglosphere" that's blocking the ascent of Esperanto. Thirdly, I don't think many of us, regardless of our native languages, are really "provoked" by Esperanto, but I do think the proselytizing for Esperanto by some of its enthusiasts gets on at least some people's nerves, as does the suggestion that anyone who hasn't studied it is completely ignorant on the issue and thus has no right to an opinion. (I realize that you haven't suggested this, nor did Levi, and don't want to tar all the Esperantists with this brush, but such comments have been made in other threads.) I read Levi's initial post simply as an expression of genuine enthusiasm, but as it comes fairly soon after some other threads in which strong emotions were expressed on both sides, I think that, unintentionally, it sparked a revival of the pro-versus-anti dynamic, with some of the attendant emotions, seen earlier. Personally, I count as another English-speaking "non-fan" of Esperanto; I have nothing against the language per se, but simply have no interest in learning it, as there are other languages, not to mention other subjects, that strike me as more rewarding or interesting. If others find it rewarding, good for them, but hearing about it comes across, at least to me, like hearing some people expound on their religious beliefs, with an implicit suggestion that non-believers are somehow less worthy. Of course this doesn't apply to all Esperantists, but I think that this perception is what drives at least some of the negative reception to Esperanto. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Smart Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 5343 days ago 352 posts - 398 votes Speaks: Spanish, English*, Latin, French Studies: German | Message 19 of 78 15 April 2010 at 3:48am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I agree with you. I have only recently even heard of Esperanto! And to me it is not appealing at all. I want a real language, not a mutt. Edited by Smart on 15 April 2010 at 3:48am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Johntm Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5426 days ago 616 posts - 725 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 20 of 78 15 April 2010 at 5:07am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I agree with Tombstone. Some of your posts seem negative toweards Anglophones. If you don't like, move to a non-Anglophone country. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Johntm Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5426 days ago 616 posts - 725 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 21 of 78 15 April 2010 at 5:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||
1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6474 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 22 of 78 15 April 2010 at 10:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||
This is the observer bias, because this forum hosts surprisingly few people from Asia, Africa and South America, probably due to their limited fluency in English. However, in the broad Esperanto community, Brazil, Japan, China, Iran, West Africa and the area of the former USSR are the real hotspots, while European Esperanto speakers tend to be older and more complacent on average. Looking at participation statistics of the Universala Kongreso, you will see that the recent congresses in Japan and China had more participants than the ones in the Netherlands or Poland (and that was for the anniversary!), and even the Middle East boasts more Esperanto speakers than North America. A language based on various non-European languages is much harder to learn for everybody. European languages cover not just Europe but also North America, South America, Oceania and Russia & India in Asia. That is a large percentage of the world's population right there, unfortunately split between English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, German and other languages. Additionally, most of Africa uses some European language or other as lingua franca, meaning that most Africans have studied one or more European languages, even if they are not really fluent in them, and that will help them learn Esperanto. That leaves only some parts of Asia where people have no link at all to the vocabulary of Esperanto - but surprisingly, Esperanto is very strong in those same countries. If it doesn't bother them, don't let it bother you. Adding vocabulary from Arabic for example would promote a tiny percentage of the world's population while the language would be significantly harder for all others, because Arabic is not widely studied or understood outside the Arab countries. Adding vocabulary from Chinese may have more merit because of the sheer size of the Chinese population, however the Chinese wouldn't benefit from it unless you're also planning to have a tonal language - the vast majority of Chinese people are unable to recognize a word if you pronounce it with the wrong tone, so that benefit would fly right past them. ... As for the original point of this thread, Levi is not deluded. There is indeed a higher percentage of people like us among Esperanto speakers than among speakers of other languages because of the self-selection bias. Anybody learning Esperanto has CHOSEN to do so, while most people CAN'T HELP learning English because they are born native speakers or because their jobs require knowledge of English. (I don't mean that as a criticism.) The Esperanto community has traditionally been very high on language lovers (obviously; who else would have even heard of Esperanto) and also logically- minded people such as scientists and programmers are represented above-average. Even if it wasn't for self-selection, this would not be about to change, because of the initial seeding. For example: On Saturday, Brion Vibber, the long-term technical head of Wikipedia, is going to give a lecture about the technical development of Wikipedia over the years. He will lecture in Esperanto and the lecture will be interpreted to German for attending non-Esperantists. The lecture will be held at C-Base (a cool spaceship- like meeting point) in Berlin and guess who will attend, who will be introduced to Esperanto this way? More geeks and programmers ;-) Edited by Sprachprofi on 15 April 2010 at 11:20am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Blunderstein Triglot Pro Member Sweden schackhandeln.se Joined 5422 days ago 60 posts - 82 votes Speaks: Swedish*, EnglishC2, FrenchB2 Studies: German, Esperanto Personal Language Map | Message 23 of 78 15 April 2010 at 10:54am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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No doubt some Esperantists go too far when praising Esperanto. However, some of the Esperanto-bashers here are, in my opinion, far worse. The most ridiculous so far is the one who claimed in another thread that Esperanto culture does not exist at all, and now complains here about the attitude of Esperantists.
It's like a bully who is sobbing because somebody hit back at him. Also, claiming that Cordelia has pointed out all native English-speakers as Esperanto-bashers is pure nonsense. She has said no such thing, which is obvious if you read her posts. She pointed out that many of the Esperanto-bashers here have English as their mother tongue. That is still a very small group (maybe 5-10 persons). The number of people who have English as their native language is somewhat bigger... Why don't you just leave us Esperantists alone? If some Esperantist goes too far in praising Esperanto, point it out to that person. What you are doing now is something completely different. Do you really want people to leave this forum with disgust, just because of your intolerance? If you respond to this post by feeling sorry for yourself and complaining about how bad some Esperantists have behaved, without taking any responsibility for your own actions, then I'll take that as a "yes". Just for the record: I don't believe that Esperanto will ever be the world language. Perhaps it will one day be one important language among others, who knows. From my point of view, it doesn't really matter. I find Esperanto worth learning and using for me, personally, for a number of reasons. Once my skills in Esperanto are sufficient for my needs, I'll work on another language (probably German which is more or less on hold right now). As for Esperanto's benefit for language learners, I can only speak from my experience. Every language I learn facilitates the next one. With Esperanto this process is quicker. I've already felt that knowledge about Esperanto has helped me a bit in understanding the structure of my other languages. It has also given me the chance to develop my language-learning skills. Small benefits, no big deal, at least not yet. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6015 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 24 of 78 15 April 2010 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
It seems to me that what you got out of Esperanto isn't really about language at all, and more social, which is somewhat incongruous with the thread's title: Esperanto's benefit for language learners. And when it comes down to "common interests", it becomes rather tautologous: the reason to learn Esperanto is that you're the sort of person who wants to learn Esperanto and you'll meet more of the sort of people who want to learn Esperanto. This doesn't actually recommend the language at all to people who aren't interested in it at the outset. Besides the same cultural interchange can now be enjoyed in a myriad of different ways. The Esperanto house-visiting culture evolved long before the budget air-travel boom. Getting to a foreign country (other than on package holiday charters) was reserved for the well-off. Now we can just jump on a flight and go wherever we want. With social networking and internet chat, it's dead easy to find somewhere to meet people. Check out CouchSurfing.com and you can invite speakers of any language you like to stay in your spare room or on your sofa, and you can similarly go and visit speakers of whatever language you care to. Or you can invite or visit people who don't speak natively any language you are learning, but have a second language that you also speak (most likely English). It's like your "servo" passport but taken to a whole other level. It hasn't got the same middle-class bias as the Esperanto community, and caters for a much wider, divergent set of interests too. Anyway, I think the "propedeutic" argument is over-rated as Esperanto was constructed from a structuralist grammatical approach. Structuralist grammar is a poor descriptor of languages and is being slowly replaced (frustratingly slowly) by functional models. Yes, all study needs some kind of structuralist base, but structuralism is actually the easiest part of a language. Consider Michel Thomas. In 12 hours he covers the majority of the structural elements of a language like Spanish. The hard part of language is the mass of vocabulary, the inevitabl irregularities and the functional layers over the top of the structure. Esperanto was designed to be easy, and it is easy because it misses out the hard parts, so it clearly can't teach how to learn the hard parts. So all in all, Esperanto is for the people who want to speak Esperanto. It's not the language of international communication. It won't take you places you couldn't otherwise go. It's no panacea that turns the non-linguist into a linguist. It's not some new Bible or secret How-to-be-happy formula that you simply must evangelise and spread. It's available to those who want it -- and let's leave it at that. 7 persons have voted this message useful |
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