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Benny Lewis

 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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translator2
Senior Member
United States
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848 posts - 1862 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 129 of 164
23 May 2012 at 11:24pm | IP Logged 
That is a great article.

I have been able to speak another language for so long (over 25 years) that I completely forgot that someone who has never learned a language has no idea how long it would take and may be more gullible to the "speak Portuguese in a week" or similar marketing campaigns. Fluent German in three months sounds plausible to someone just starting out, but to someone who has studied German for over 10 years, it sounds impossible.

iguanamon wrote:
There is an interesting article entitled: The Myth of Fast Fluency that puts this into perspective.


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tarvos
Super Polyglot
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 Message 130 of 164
24 May 2012 at 12:21am | IP Logged 
It's all a matter of semantics. I don't claim to have learned French in three weeks (and I haven't), but I'm sure that if I spend 3 months intensively with French I'll speak a whole lot better French. How much better French exactly? Maybe I can get to B2, who knows. Is that fluency? I don't know.

I don't care. Just because you think talent is more important just means I won't give up learning even if it's just to prove you wrong.

And by the way, people would describe me as "talented at languages", whereas in reality I am no more talented than anyone else - it's all about exposure.

And in that sense Benny is completely right - what he does is basically full-on exposure for three months forcing yourself to use that and only that language. Whether you call that "perfect fluency" doesn't matter because his idea of fluency is not yours (and yours does not hold more sway because you are a moderator or a linguist or a professional translator; it holds more sway because the argument's been built up properly).

But if you enjoy thinking it, have fun thinking what you think. I'm glad I'm human and have got the mind and ability to achieve something extraordinary as a mere mortal :)
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Juаn
Senior Member
Colombia
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 Message 131 of 164
24 May 2012 at 12:53am | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
It's all a matter of semantics. I don't claim to have learned French in three weeks (and I haven't), but I'm sure that if I spend 3 months intensively with French I'll speak a whole lot better French. How much better French exactly? Maybe I can get to B2, who knows.


I do. And you won't.
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kanewai
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 Message 132 of 164
24 May 2012 at 2:19am | IP Logged 
3 months at 8 hours a day equals 720 hours, which should be enough to achieve a basic
level of fluency, and perhaps reach B2 / C1. The whole US Foreign Service language
academy is predicated on reaching this level in the same amount of time. The US Peace
Corps brings its volunteers up to a much lower level of fluency (perhaps A2 or B1?),
but in a shorter period of time.

While I do believe that some people have more talent than others, there's nothing
really extraordinary about achieving fluency in three months of immersion; it would
take more focus and determination than outright skill.

- This is more focus than I probably have, mind you. I don't think it would be easy;
just eminently possible.


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translator2
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 Message 133 of 164
24 May 2012 at 3:55am | IP Logged 
Fluency in three months = absolutely NO WAY! I don't care how much you film yourself in front of native speakers while you nod your head and pretend like you are understanding.

But of course my definition of fluency is not the dumbed down "my pencil is yellow" version. To me, fluency = very high proficiency and something close to complete mastery (not necessarily perfect pronunciation, but an extensive vocabulary and the ability to express yourself, be understood and understand others in almost any normal situation.) You just cannot assimilate (not just learn) this knowledge and train your brain to comprehend a new language in three months, six months, or even a year.

However, telling people that they will have to study day and night for 1-2 years would not sell a whole lot of books.


kanewai wrote:
3 months at 8 hours a day equals 720 hours, which should be enough to achieve a basic
level of fluency, and perhaps reach B2 / C1. The whole US Foreign Service language
academy is predicated on reaching this level in the same amount of time. The US Peace
Corps brings its volunteers up to a much lower level of fluency (perhaps A2 or B1?),
but in a shorter period of time.

While I do believe that some people have more talent than others, there's nothing
really extraordinary about achieving fluency in three months of immersion; it would
take more focus and determination than outright skill.

- This is more focus than I probably have, mind you. I don't think it would be easy;
just eminently possible.



Edited by translator2 on 24 May 2012 at 4:03am
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Juаn
Senior Member
Colombia
Joined 5348 days ago
727 posts - 1830 votes 
Speaks: Spanish*

 
 Message 134 of 164
24 May 2012 at 4:48am | IP Logged 
From Foreign Service Institute: Lessons learned from fifty years of theory and practice in government language teaching:

Quote:
Learning a language also cannot be done in a short time. The length of time
it takes to learn a language well depends to a great extent on similarities between
the new language and other languages that the learner may know well. The time
necessary for a beginning learner to develop professional proficiency in each language—proven again and again over a half century of language teaching—cannot
be shortened appreciably. FSI has tried to shorten programs, and it has not worked
(see also lesson 5).


Also note that their estimate for achieving some form of fluency in Category 1 languages is in fact closer to six months under the best conditions and full study intensity. I'm not sure how this level would relate to CEFR ratings though:

Quote:
B2 Can understand the main ideas of complex text on both concrete and abstract topics, including technical discussions in his/her field of specialisation. Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party. Can produce clear, detailed text on a wide range of subjects and explain a viewpoint on a topical issue giving the advantages and disadvantages of various options.

2 persons have voted this message useful



irishpolyglot
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Senior Member
Ireland
fluentin3months
Joined 5636 days ago
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Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language
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 Message 135 of 164
24 May 2012 at 5:01am | IP Logged 
"However, telling people that they will have to study day and night for 1-2 years would not sell a whole lot of books."

Day and night for 1-2 years? There are 8760 hours in a year and 17,520 in two. I think you'll find plenty of people who have learned a language to what you consider fluency in less than eight thousand hours.

Whatever the ideal number of dedicated hours are for a particular person, that's how long it takes. You can do it casually and it will indeed take years, or you can do it intensively in a way that would be too stressful for most, and it will take months, or something in between. This is quite simple Mathematics.
6 persons have voted this message useful



tarvos
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China
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 Message 136 of 164
24 May 2012 at 9:25am | IP Logged 
Juаn wrote:
tarvos wrote:
It's all a matter of semantics. I don't claim to have learned French in three weeks (and I haven't), but I'm sure that if I spend 3 months intensively with French I'll speak a whole lot better French. How much better French exactly? Maybe I can get to B2, who knows.


I do. And you won't.


I'm at a solid B1, I am pretty sure that is possible.

Also, at the risk of sounding like Locke: Don't tell me what I can and can't do :)

Edited by tarvos on 24 May 2012 at 9:27am


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