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Benny Lewis | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| translator2 Senior Member United States Joined 6922 days ago 848 posts - 1862 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 137 of 164 24 May 2012 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I respectfully disagree with that statement. I do not believe that you can condense some types of learning (such as languages). The brain requires time to assimilate the knowledge you acquire and the input you receive (from native speakers, watching videos, etc.). If you stop studying a language for a while and then go back to it, you will notice that your brain has been working "in the background". I don't believe that you can say that because a language takes x amount of hours to learn, that you can then increase the number of hours you study per day and learn the language faster. Those hours need to be spaced out with sufficient time for your brain to "re-wire" itself to the sounds and grammar of the new language.
Now, if you concentrate on learning one language for three entire months (as your sole preoccupation), you can learn most of the basic grammar and a decent-sized vocabulary and you will probably be able to converse with people on a basic level. The more languages you already know, the easier this task will be. However, you will have to continue studying this language (with lesser intensity perhaps) for at least another year or more before you reach a level that I would call fluency. There is always more to learn and even after 20+ years as a translator, I still have to spend hours and hours on the internet searching for the translation of words and terms. Now if you are saying that you can "reactivate" or "strengthen" fluency by concentrating on a single acquired language for three months, I would agree with that. Unfortunately, most of us do not have the ability to do that (for work or family reasons). I have often wondered what would happen, for example, if I could spend an entire month completely immersed in, let's say German, using no English, listening to, reading and thinking only in German. After translating German for 20 years, I wonder what the result would be? I would be curious to know how many more languages you plan on learning this way and if you believe there is a limit to how many you can keep active. Do you plan on slowing down at some point and perfecting the ones you have learned?
Edited by translator2 on 24 May 2012 at 4:46pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4892 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 138 of 164 24 May 2012 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't think anyone is arguing that you can condense language learning, or take short-cuts. And people's ideas of 'fluent' vary widely - I know better than to use the word here, so that's my mistake. I'm saying that three months intensive is not a short-cut or trick, but an appropriate amount of time to make the leap to basic (fluency / proficiency / skills ).
FSI requires that new hires reach ILR Level 3, "Professional Working Fluency," (definition below) for a Cat 1 language in 24 weeks, with 600 hours of class time (five hours a day) and approx 400 hours of self-study (three to four hours a day). At the half way mark ... 3 months ... a student needs to test at ILR Level 2, "Limited Working Proficiency" or they risk being discharged. This is not my opinion; it is based on what I was told when I interviewed with the Foreign Service. I would call this the early stages of fluency. Others don't. But it is well beyond "basic" and certainly beyond a "dumbed down 'my pencil is yellow' version" of language learning. If I wanted I could define fluency to a point where many native-English speaking Americans wouldn't qualify (think how many would be lost at a standard University lecture, or who can't write a coherent essay). Fluency (or proficiency) is a continuum. As for the brain needing time to adapt, I agree. And again, the brain can do amazing things in three months. In the Peace Corps I had 6 weeks of "language and culture" training, and then I was dropped off on an 0.1-square mile (0.25-square kilometer) island with 250 residents, 100 miles across the open ocean from the nearest English speaker. I adapted, and learned to think, feel, and 'be' in the language within the season (we had a break at the four-month mark. It was hard and traumatic, and I felt like I was on the edge of a breakdown for a lot of the time, but I did it. And this is standard Peace Corps practice. Three months doesn't sound like much now, sitting at my desk, but three months of being cut off from the world you know can feel like an eternity. And your brain can and will assimilate into that new world. My experience was at the extreme end, but I do not see why you couldn't recreate it in a less intense environment - and with better learning materials and more awareness of how to learn. _________________________________________________________ Definitions: ILR Level 3 - Professional working proficiency A person at this level is described as follows:
ILR Level 2 - Limited working proficiency A person at this level is described as follows:
Edited by kanewai on 24 May 2012 at 10:27pm 13 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| apparition Octoglot Senior Member United States Joined 6653 days ago 600 posts - 667 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), French, Arabic (Iraqi), Portuguese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Pashto | Message 139 of 164 24 May 2012 at 10:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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kanewai, that's interesting about the FSI. IIRC, At DLI, a Cat 1 language course is
usually 6 months and the military requires a 2 in listening, a 2 in reading and a 1+ in speaking. Are FSI students tested in listening, reading and speaking and must get a 3 in all of those areas? If so, they have pretty high standards! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4892 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 140 of 164 24 May 2012 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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This is from memory, so some of the details are vague: they had different standards for
different languages. People who didn't test at the required level could still be placed in the field, but they would need to pass the language test in a set time period. Otherwise they were terminated. The message we got was that most people passed their language while at the Institute, and that it was difficult to pursue studies once in the field. We were also warned that it was intense: that learning your target language was considered your full-time job. Nice, eh? Though the students I met were seriously stressed! Spanish and French required the highest scores, and were thus considered the most difficult, but students stayed at the Institute a month or so longer than for other languages. Arabic only required that you pass for reading. Edited by kanewai on 24 May 2012 at 11:36pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5636 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 141 of 164 25 May 2012 at 11:01am | IP Logged | |||||
VERY well said. Three months is an eternity when you are truly active and surrounded by pressures to perform on a daily basis, and not using any other language. Comparing this to someone simply "studying hard" for a few hours a day during a few months is a world away. Efficient immersion is NOT the same as someone telling you to "study better". You have to change your entire lifestyle. It's probably why so many people are in disbelief of what is possible in just a few months. There are far too many people who prove the effectiveness of intensive immersion to reach quite high levels, but perhaps some people here simply have not met them in their day to day lives.
I will slow down at some point (perhaps in a couple of years, when I get sick of travelling). When it happens, it will not be for linguistic purposes, but for lifestyle purposes. Slowing down is totally unnecessary for perfecting my current languages. With the exception of my most intensive language learning projects, I am constantly maintaining or improving on all my permanent languages. I practice them all the time if possible. Here in Beijing, over the last week I've spoken at least six hours of French, five hours of Spanish, an hour of Italian, an hour of Portuguese and a half an hour of German, as well as several hours of Chinese (not counting necessities, ordering food etc.). I also spoke Esperanto for an entire two days a couple of weeks back (see recent video upload). I find it highly unlikely that brains work as much as you claim "in the background". I prefer genuine active use of a language. 10 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tmp011007 Diglot Senior Member Congo Joined 6072 days ago 199 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: French, Portuguese | Message 142 of 164 29 May 2012 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
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"efficient immersion" requires a method
2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| jdmoncada Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 5037 days ago 470 posts - 741 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Finnish Studies: Russian, Japanese | Message 143 of 164 29 May 2012 at 8:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
Benny, you may have answered this elsewhere, but which languages are your permanent languages? Thank you. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5636 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 144 of 164 30 May 2012 at 3:01am | IP Logged | |||||
When you meet as many expats as I have the "method" is very simple: stop speaking your mother tongue so much. That's it. There are memory methods, learning material methods etc., but nothing beats actual real life pressure. Immersion is a lifestyle, not a method. But if it really needs to have the "method" layout then here you go: Step 1: Stop speaking your mother tongue all the time and use the target language in as many ways as you can. Study it to improve between actual use sessions. Step 2: Repeat step 1.
The languages listed on "speaks" here on HTLAL. Although my ASL is quite weak, I am going to improve it, and if I get the chance to put some serious time back into it, I'll add Dutch back to the list. Then of course Mandarin will get on there too. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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