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Polyglots - sinners or saints? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots |  | |
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5336 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 1 of 19 17 August 2012 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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Now if you are anything like me, your immediate reaction to this title would be – neither – what a ridiculous question! Why would sinners or saints have anything to do with polyglots? Well the title reflects what I see as a general trend which worries me. We (in the broader sense) raise people up on a pedestal, and then we tear them down. It does not harm us, but it may harm them. And I think it harms the community.
The two immediate causes for my thoughts on the subject were a thread on another forum where HTLAL was accused of “worshipping the polyglots”, and another thread where a member is disappointed that two children who have been showed to speak a bit of many languages are not given the respect and attention “they are due”. And I started wondering how we could best receive polyglots, how we could give them positive reinforcements, and give them the respect they truly deserve without showering praise on the undeserving, or praising them so much that it goes to their head. To take the saints part first – I have met some truly amazing polyglots through this forum, both on the forum and in person. Some of them do not cease to impress me, and I think they deserve all the praise they can get. Some speak several languages, with an amazing accent. We also have those who focus on the written languages, but who can write and translate in a whole bunch of languages, and who teach us all something new every day on the forum. I cannot admire them enough. But I have seen others, some who believe they can speak an impossible amount of languages and have received their gift from God himself, those who teach languages to others, but speak with a really bad accent, mumble, stumble in their videos, and claim to speak dozens of exotic languages and keep turning out an insane amount of videos, those who learn an obscure language in a day, and who get mad unless you declare them fluent in at least 40 – even though you have no way of telling how they speak the 35 you do not know, and they are awful in the 5 languages you do. And those who speak a variety of languages, some with a mediocre accent, some with good ones, and who get really mad if anyone criticize them. Or young people who get pushed by the media to claim fluency in more languages than they actually master, but who would impress us with the ones they master, if they would only stick to that. So how do we best react to support them in a healthy way, but not lift them up so high that they are doomed to fall? I hasten to add that even those who perhaps impress me less can still inspire a lot of people, but I get a tad worried, when they are showered in so much praise that they themselves believe that they are amazing. Oh. And two last points. Children is a special case, and I would be particularly cautious giving them too much praise and media attention – simply because it is something you get used too, and miss terribly when it does not come. Obviously praise from relatives and friends, and others who see them on YouTube is fine, as long as it is within reason, but to teach them that they are above all other children is unhealthy. We all know how difficult it can be for children movie stars to become a well-adjusted adult, and it would be equally difficult for a child who has been used to getting massive media attention for being a polyglot or a panglot/ globalglot, or whatever they call it. And as you have seen – I have used no names. Most of you will know who I am thinking of, but the moment we start discussing names rather than issues, threads have a nasty way of getting closed. I would be very pleased if we kept to using no names. So do you think we worship the polyglots too much, and how can we praise and support all polyglots, particularly those who are young and in the learning phase, without exaggerating, and how can we help and not destroy those who have already received so much praise that that they are convinced that they are close to the stars? To me there are two words that are key words for “the good polyglots”: reason and humbleness. It is fine to be proud of what you know, as long as your description of your own abilities stays within reason. A touch of humbleness never hurts either. If you can speak 20 languages, that is fantastic. If you can speak two, know a little of four more, and have dabbled in and forgotten the other 14, you had better be open and honest about it. You can then receive your deserved praise for the two, and encouragement for the others. And for us, I think we should not exaggerate our feedback either, in either direction. I think it is just as unhelpful for an aspiring polyglot to be told that he is amazing – if he is mediocre – as it is to be told that you are a cheat and a fraud if you have been overenthusiastic in your description of your own abilities. But that is just me. I come with my views which are based on my national and cultural background. What do you think? How can we lift them up where they belong – but not too high up? 10 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| vermillon Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4680 days ago 602 posts - 1042 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC2, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, German | Message 2 of 19 17 August 2012 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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As you said, a touch of humility never hurts. People who are usually considered as great polyglots in this community are all people who behave humbly. I'll try to resist name-dropping, but two examples of this would be Alexander Arguelles and Richard Simcott. As for the ones who are regularly the centre of flamewars, they're usually showing off, don't accept criticism and over-estimate themselves...
What could I say... this is not specific to the language learning community, and people react the same way in other scenes where the same kind of "icons" serve as models and "wannabe icons" are harshly criticized. If those guys get criticized and cannot take it, perhaps it's time for them to re-think who they are... As for language learners being sinners, I guess a lot of us (me!) would fall in gluttony and greed (gimme more languages!!!)... and then some in pride, envy and wrath. Fortunately, most of us manage to escape sloth! :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7158 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 3 of 19 17 August 2012 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think that I know where you saw that post, Solfrid Cristin. ;-)
I guess that when there's even a subforum devoted to polyglots, it's bound to attract posts that seem off-kilter when they come to praise or scorn. Furthermore, the posts that seem a little thick on praise give the impression to observers that there's hero-worship happening on this forum (how much though is a matter of discussion; I don't think that it's that substantial but neither do I think that it's that miniscule). When it comes to support for someone who's genuinely interested in learning languages, I'd be more inclined to give discrete or understated support (perhaps even mainfested by passing on links or information about other learning resources) than to become a cheerleader; I'd start to feel like a sycophant. The most important criterium is that someone is genuinely interested in learning languages, yet since polyglots by definition have shown this interest, then it's awash. Therefore any private judgement that I hold on these people will depend on what they study and how they behave themselves (predictably, I prefer polyglots who focus on their abilities rather than showboats or characters who tend to like to "make statements" and indirectly or not, mislead outsiders). vermillon sums up pretty much my feelings about the place and the sometimes inadvertent role polyglots assume from the standpoint of learners. On a related note, my general attitude to verifiable/demonstrated polyglots is factual acknowledgement (i.e. "So-and-so can speak x languages and does such-and-such for a living." Next!) but I don't consider these people as ones worthy of automatic/unabashed emulation strictly on their multilingualism. After all a person is more than whatever perceived value rests in the language(s) that he/she can use (similar to how someone's place/station can be unrelated to the size of his/her bank account, number of cars in the garage (if applicable) or the alphabet soup of degrees, diplomas or certifications following the name to name a few things that can unduly impress an outsider to the point of adulation/fandom). All of this ruminating makes me think of my reactions to the post about nominating YouTube's best polyglots...
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| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4624 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 4 of 19 17 August 2012 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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When Richard Simcott first appeared on Youtube speaking something like 15 languages, there was a lot of speculation and scepticism - did he really speak all thes languages well or did he just know a few stock phrases in some of them?
Turns out that Richard really is a linguist extraordinaire and very humble to boot. I've enjoyed listening to other polyglots but there are some who I feel try and pull the wool over our eyes and make spurious claims. A case of look how many languages I speak. I would be more impressed with someone who had a solid knowledge of 5 or 6 languages than by a person who spread themselves thinly over 15 or 20. Edited by beano on 17 August 2012 at 7:17pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5264 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 5 of 19 17 August 2012 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have enough trouble worrying about what I do in my own language journey without having to worry about the polyglots. Their accomplishments or lack thereof, do not have any bearing on what I do, nor do I wish to emulate them. If I ever become a "polyglot" it will be because I back into it, not because it is my goal.
So, I salute them for whatever their skills may be and I chide them if they exaggerate said skills for bragging rights. If they can provide me with useful tips and advice, then I am grateful for their sharing of their experience in learning languages. My hat is off to anyone who successfully learns a second language to a high level and if that person has several foreign languages to their credit, I congratulate them, however; I don't adore, adulate or worship them. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 6 of 19 17 August 2012 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | ||
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Mae Trilingual Octoglot Pro Member Germany Joined 4993 days ago 299 posts - 499 votes Speaks: German*, SpanishC2*, Swiss-German*, FrenchC2, EnglishC2, ItalianB2, Dutch, Portuguese Studies: Russian, Swedish Personal Language Map | Message 7 of 19 17 August 2012 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm with you, Cristina. IMO we at HTLAL are not worshipping polyglots, but third
persons could think so... Personally, I prefer the humble and sociable way. Problem #1: Saying what you think The critical point is finding the right measure when giving advice, assessing someone's language level, and motivating or encouraging. It is difficult to find the right words when it comes to bringing bad news, if that is the case. But do we need to be brutally honest? 'If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.' I try to stick to this... Problem #2: Jealousy, envy, hate, resentment "C'est le ton qui fait la musique". Sometimes there are some weird answers in here, where there could probably be something like jealousy or else behind it. Nevertheless, who has the right to criticise someone else anyway? Problem #3: We need role models This is not a question whether we need role models or not. We have favourite bands, singers, actors, athletes, etc. to whom we look up - this is a human need. And we want to know who is the actor with most Academy Awards ("Oscars"), who is the fastest sprinter, and who is the person who masters most languages in the world. As soon as we found someone fulfilling our criteria, we tend to look up and to attribute positive traits. This is the so called "halo effect" (cognitive bias). We're not beyond of putting someone on a pedestal, especially when we already look up to them. I hope these thoughts are not completely wrong, and can contribute to find an adequate way to deal with the "trouble" in question. EDIT: @iguanamon - I totally agree. Your way is exactly how I deal with it. Edited by Mae on 20 August 2012 at 5:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5768 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 8 of 19 17 August 2012 at 8:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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Speaking many languages doesn't say anything about a person other than that they spent a lot of time learning languages, by necessity or out of their own desire.
The one person knowing many language who left the biggest impression in my life was a weasel who used his skills to exploit other people. Of course, being able to communiate and manipulate well is a necessity for such a person, so language skills and a certain cultural competence are good skills for them to learn. Still, that doesn't make his knowledge of languages 'evil'. It's just that the way he used that knowledge is, for me, a proof of his rotten character. I don't respect people who spend a lot of time and effort on acquiring skills they then use to hurt people. I do respect people who spend a lot of time and effort on acquiring skills to help and understand others and themselves. And if they just do it because they want to, with no intention to use it for either, well ... as long as they're happy? I don't know much about the character of youtube polyglots, so all I can see is the way they present themselves, the aim they seem to have, and their skill level. If people seem to aim for positive feedback, or want to sell me a product or an ideology I tend to ignore them. If they just seem to be genuinely very skilled (or courageous) people, well, I respect them for the effort they made? But if I don't know somebody already, I refrain from commenting, because it makes me feel weird. I wouldn't compliment a random stranger on the street, either. (I would smile at them, but that's it.) Edited by Bao on 17 August 2012 at 8:44pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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