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German language programmes? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| callmemodesty Newbie United Kingdom Joined 3486 days ago 3 posts - 3 votes Speaks: English* | Message 1 of 11 30 May 2015 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Would using the Living Language German Complete programme followed by Fluenz German be a good way (or
at least start) to learn German? Does anyone have any experience with either of these programmes? I'm new to this website and I only speak English, which is my native language. I do however want to learn at one other language, and currently I'm thinking of learning German. If I'm going to use multiple language programmes like Fluenz, which order should I use them in? I'm 16, by the way. Any advice, tips or responses to my questions would be very much appreciated. Thank you. (This post is a near exact copy of my first post, except it's about German instead of French. Any advice, tips or responses to that post would be very welcome. Link: http://how-to-learn-any- language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40435). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4533 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes  Studies: German | Message 2 of 11 30 May 2015 at 8:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The program most people recommend is Assimil – German with Ease. My notes on it are:
* 100 short lessons followed by short grammar explanation – lots of audio repetition for rhythm of language. * Takes about six months to complete. * Vocabulary size is good 2000 – 3000 words – though less frequent words can be somewhat random * Grammar explanations are lacking – either buy a grammar book or supplement with another course. Cost about 75 Euros ----------- Also you might want to consider Hugo: German in 3 months: * Good for pronunciation and grammar (though some grammar terms can be a bit idiosyncratic) – not much vocabulary. * Dense – prob. six months too. * Get the 2011, not 2003 version. * Book is apparently, better than dialogues on CDs * About 32 Euros --------- I have tried to learn German in a more immersive manner via books and tv shows. If you are interested check out my log. Massive Immersion in Berlin 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| chaotic_thought Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 3542 days ago 129 posts - 274 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Dutch, French | Message 3 of 11 30 May 2015 at 8:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As an English speaker I didn't find any problem with learning German spelling, vocabulary and grammar. For some reason some people seem to make a big deal about some grammatical aspects of this language. In my opinion it's better not to care about these things too much. For example, if you want to talk about about X, and you don't know the gender for the word X, just choose one at random! Eventually you'll learn to use the right genders the same way you learn proper pronunciation.
As for listening, I couldn't understand people at all even after months of book learning. My cure was to listen to news reports and television every single day without fail. At least 2-3 hours of uninterrupted content. At first you won't understand much but eventually it will make sense, especially if you watch a long running series. Or if you listen to news reports, you'll probably have some passing familiarity with what's going on from other sources. Another helpful thing is to watch American television series which have been dubbed by German voice actors. This applies to almost all popular television series. I have to say the quality of the voice acting of these series in general is quite good. Sometimes I now actually prefer the German version of the series to the original. If you watch a series you're already familiar with, you will already be familiar with the characters/story so understanding the words will be easier. Edited by chaotic_thought on 30 May 2015 at 9:05pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5866 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 4 of 11 30 May 2015 at 9:31pm | IP Logged | |||||
Can I ask what source you use for these series? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4521 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 5 of 11 30 May 2015 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
If you were German and wouldn't know any English, what would you type into the google search mask for finding such streams? Like with a specific TV series in mind. This is your German exercise of the day ... ;) Edited by daegga on 30 May 2015 at 9:53pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4533 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 6 of 11 30 May 2015 at 10:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yeah. I found the the German Walter White in Breaking Bad really very good, and preferred it to the original American English version. I agree with Chaotic Thought that it's not necessary to worry too much about grammar. You certainly don't need it to access native materials, and the more you read/watch the better your German will be. At some point you'll probably want to go back and review grammar (esp. if you want to write), but it's not essential to do that right from the get go. You'll want to get some sort of overview of the grammar though before you start reading - which is where Assimil etc can be useful. You should at least understand how the word order of sentences work, what the cases mean etc. But you don't need to do the much more difficult task of reproducing the grammar from the get go. It is (obviously) helpful to have some vocabulary before starting native materials. I would suggest using something like Anki to learn the approximate meanings of the 2000-3000 most common words so you don't trip up on words and then perhaps get a Kindle with pop-up dictionary (I like the discontinued Kindles with a cursor - you can buy them on Ebay for about 50 Euros). Edited by patrickwilken on 30 May 2015 at 11:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| chaotic_thought Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 3542 days ago 129 posts - 274 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Dutch, French | Message 7 of 11 30 May 2015 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
1) German TV broadcasts are the simplest source if you can access them. 2) Otherwise, try the online offers of the senders - they have some materials online, although sometimes it is region-restricted based on IP address. 3) Regional DVDs which will have the German audio. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Speakeasy Senior Member Canada Joined 4052 days ago 507 posts - 1098 votes Studies: German | Message 8 of 11 31 May 2015 at 4:57am | IP Logged | |||||
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Hello Callmemodesty,
WELCOME First, welcome to the HTLAL Forum. I hope that your contact with the Forum Members will be as pleasurable as it will be edifying. So that others might better assist you, perhaps you could express your specific language-learning goals. For example, are you seeking general knowledge useful to a traveller or, alternatively, would you like to achieve a high level of conversational and writing ability? Have you had previous experiences with independent-study of a language and, if so, how did that work out for you? Also, given that you're likely still at school, how much time can you realistically devote to your independent study of German? BENCH-MARKING YOUR PERFORMANCE (CEFR) While you may already be familiar with the U.K. classification system for academic courses and testing, many of the independent language-learners in this forum refer to the CEFR (Common European Framework of Reference) classification system. I mention this now, as you will come across comments such as: "This course will take you to the CEFR A2 level." Here is a link to the Wikipedia overview of CEFR Levels. As a general rule, if you were to read through the lines of many of the comments on the HTLAL Forum, you will notice that there seems to be a tacit agreement amongst the members that achieving a true CEFR B2 Level with self-instructional materials alone is extremely difficult and perhaps even unrealistic. There are ways of achieving this level, but it requires very intensive study and, most likely, either direct contact with native speakers or, at the very least, an intensive simulated immersion environment. I mention this as it is tempting to set one's goals at the C1/C2 level. SELF-IMPROVEMENT PROJECTS I suspect that many publishing houses view their Self-Study Language Courses as "self-improvement projects" for which there is a high, initial, entry-level demand. Thus, when it comes to BASIC Self-Study Language Courses, there are numerous competing courses available. My experience has been that, while there a few exceptions, the vast majority of these entry-level course are fairly-well conceived and, generally speaking, they will take the independent-learner to somewhere around the CEFR A2 Skill Level. For popular languages, such as German, there may well be several hundred competing courses. However, studies show that most adults who embark on a "self-improvement project", irrespective of their initial enthusiasm, do not complete their projects, and this includes their self-study of a foreign language. Publishers are quite aware of this fact and, for this reason, very few of them offer self-study language courses at the Intermediate or Advanced levels; the market is simply too small. There are, indeed, materials available that operate at the Intermediate or Advanced levels; however, often, they are not courses in themselves. Rather they are Supplementary Materials. YOUR SPECIFIC QUESTIONS Living Language German Complete You asked specifically about the Living Language German Complete Course. I have a fair number of "generations" of this course in several languages: German, French, Italian, Spanish. A couple of years ago, the publisher, Random House, in an effort to "rationalize" their self-study language courses, issued the current edition by cobbling together the previous edition of their "Complete Basics" series and their previous "Starting Out" series. Essentially, they removed the first Lesson Unit of the former course and inserted the essential contents of the latter. There were other changes, but most of them were superficial and did not affect the course content. While the publisher divided the course contents into "Essential, Intermediate, Advanced", along with separate books, the course remains a BASIC introduction to the language. Ignoring the initial phase, essentially speaking, the course introduces the learner to about 2,000 common "transactional" elements of vocabulary. It also presents the basics of German grammar. The basic vehicle is a series of 20 situational dialogues of increasing difficulty (this is a common approach). In this particular method, the Living Language "Units" are separated into Four Lessons that introduce the Words, Phrases, Sentences, and Conversations. While this seems like a logical and helpful approach, initially, I found it somewhat disconcerting as some of the individual Phrases and Sentences can seem curious or even bizarre because they are presented outside of the context of the Conversations. This course will, indeed, provide you with a very BASIC knowledge of German. I estimate that the level achieved would be A2, provided one actually assimilates the material. There are countless competing courses of this type; however, they'll all take you to the A2 level. Once you're about half-way through the Living Language Complete course, you might wish to begin studying Assimil German With Ease for additional practice and to relieve the boredom. Fluenz German You also asked about Fluenz German. From what I have read on a few Language Blogs, Fluenz is viewed as a fairly-well conceived Language-Learning Software system. Some people say it's the best language software currently available. I tried their demo and, with the help of a friend, (shame on me) used a bootleg copy of their German and Italian courses. First, allow me to reassure you that I am not a Luddite. Nonetheless, I am of the opinion that, despite the successful application of computer technology to so many fields, it is simply unnecessary for the successful learning of a foreign language. Countless millions of people have learned to speak multiple languages without the assistance of computers or even without the assistance of basic, self-study courses. I tried Fluenz and, although I found it to be well-conceived, I also found it to be tedious. Furthermore, I did not appreciate the experience of being tied to my computer. Finally, I find it a somewhat expensive fashion to learn the same, basic content that so many "printed-manual + recorded audio" courses offer. The level achieved would probably be in the neighborhood of A2. Having ranted a little, I would add that, if Fluenz stimulates you, motivates you, enthralls you, and if you simply can't get enough of it, then, by all means, use it! Addendum: Sequencing Materials Sorry, I overlooked your specific question concerning the sequencing of the two courses above. As they present equivalent materials, and despite any small differences in vocabulary or emphasis, there is no particular need to complete both of them and there is no advantage in sequencing one before the other. I suggest that you simply choose only one of them and supplement your learning with other materials. For example, once you've reached about the half-way mark of either of these courses, you could begin Assimil German With Ease. Although Assimil, too, is a basic course, I believe that you would find the change in approach quite refreshing. ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS For English speakers wishing to learn the basics of German, there are quite simply too many resources available. Furthermore, the vast majority of them are well-conceived. Here's my own list of favourites: FSI German Basic The FSI (Foreign Service Institute, U.S. Statement Department) produced numerous BASIC language courses in the 1960's - 1970's for the training of America's diplomatic personnel. Although the intensive "drill-drill-drill" method of teaching is no longer in vogue, many users respond well to it (I would be remiss in my comments if I did not add that some people find the FSI-style method the very essence of boredom). The materials are FREE on the FSI Languages Website. The audio recordings are not of the same high quality that one finds in virtually all commercial courses and the notes are somewhat skeletal, but the drills (if you respond well to the teaching approach) are fabulous. Assimil German As mentioned above, Assimil German is composed of, essentially, 100 short dialogues. From my perspective, the repetition of the Assimil dialogues, in the aggregate, have an effect similar to that of the FSI-style method. The accompanying notes can be rather obtuse. Nonetheless, the materials are fabulous for practicing a language. The publisher advertises that a B2 Level can be achieved with their course. However, a level of A2-B1 seems more realistic. If your French is good enough, or if you're adventurous, you could follow up their Basic course with their more Advanced offering which, sadly, is not available in English. Linguaphone German I will mention the Linguaphone German course more for the quality and quantity of the lengthy dialogues, as well as the rather Advanced Level of materials available, than for the teaching method itself. My biggest complaint is that the notes are somewhat obtuse. However, if this course is used with a basic German Grammar, the student can figure out what the writer should have said. Pimsleur German The Pimsleur Method takes an interesting approach to the teaching of the BASICS of a foreign language. Although a so-called "Reading Guide" accompanies the audio recordings, its contents bear little, if any, direct relation to the materials presented in the Lesson Units. It is a true ALL AUDIO teaching method. The individual lessons are designed to be completed in about 30 minutes and there are 30 lessons in a Phase. Essentially, an English-speaker slowly introduces the new material in English while two native speakers provide the corresponding German material. As the lessons advance, material from previous lessons is included so as to reinforce the learning of the preceding lessons. There is something of a "rolling-forward, looking backward" inclusion of, and letting-go of, material. Thus, unlike most other language programmes, the actual "practicing" takes place "within the lessons themselves". The objective is to provide the student with a very basic vocabulary and a general idea of the structure of the language through practice and inference. The method does, indeed, work, but it is quite lengthy. Since the matter of Grammar is not dealt with head-on, the student must consult some other source and work some of the details of the language out for himself. Also, as there is essentially no written material, the student must work backwards from the audio, with the help a dictionary, to produce his own set of notes (perhaps this is a cleverly-designed, but deliberately hidden, part of the method). For German, there are currently four Phases (I, II, III, IV) and a fifth (V) will be released in the near future. Together, the level achieved, save for the rather limited vocabulary, "might" approach the A2 level. Some people love it, others hate it, and I have a love-hate relationship with it. The full programme is frightfully expensive and, to be quite frank, given the availability of materials such as Assimil, Linguaphone, and many others, I really wonder if it is worth the price. Deutsche Welle Website There are numerous free websites for learning German. One of the very best is the Deutsche Welle website. STUDY METHOD A KEY element to consider is your STUDY METHOD. While I will refrain from making any specific recommendations, I suggest that you continue the discussion with your respondents in the HTLAL Forum and seek advice on how to approach the materials of your choice. The answers might surprise you and, to a large extent, your success and enjoyment depend on your approach to studying. THAT'S IT! You have already received some very sound advice from those who have replied above and I anticipate that others will continue to add their comments. Enjoy your studies! Edited by Speakeasy on 01 June 2015 at 2:33pm 6 persons have voted this message useful |
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