11 messages over 2 pages: 1 2
tommus
Senior Member
CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5864 days ago
979 posts - 1688 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish
| Message 9 of 11 31 May 2015 at 5:33am | IP Logged |
daegga wrote:
If you were German and wouldn't know any English, what would you type into the
google search mask for finding such streams? Like with a specific TV series in mind. This is
your German exercise of the day ... ;) |
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OK. I followed your advice. I searched for TV-Sendungen verpasste Filme Serien, and got a
huge number of possibilities. Found some interesting ones that I will have a look at.
Pleasantly surprised to also find deutschen Untertiteln.
Recommendations would also be appreciated. Thanks,
1 person has voted this message useful
| callmemodesty
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 3484 days ago
3 posts - 3 votes
Speaks: English*
| Message 10 of 11 21 June 2015 at 3:02pm | IP Logged |
Speakeasy wrote:
Hello Callmemodesty,
WELCOME
First, welcome to the HTLAL Forum. I hope that your contact with the Forum Members will be as pleasurable
as it will be edifying. So that others might better assist you, perhaps you could express your specific
language-learning goals. For example, are you seeking general knowledge useful to a traveller or,
alternatively, would you like to achieve a high level of conversational and writing ability? Have you had
previous experiences with independent-study of a language and, if so, how did that work out for you?
Also, given that you're likely still at school, how much time can you realistically devote to your independent
study of German?
BENCH-MARKING YOUR PERFORMANCE (CEFR)
While you may already be familiar with the U.K. classification system for academic courses and testing, many
of the independent language-learners in this forum refer to the CEFR (Common European Framework of
Reference) classification system. I mention this now, as you will come across comments such as: "This
course will take you to the CEFR A2 level." Here is a link to the Wikipedia overview of
CEFR
Levels. As a general rule, if you were to read through the lines of many of the comments on the HTLAL
Forum, you will notice that there seems to be a tacit agreement amongst the members that achieving a true
CEFR B2 Level with self-instructional materials alone is extremely difficult and perhaps even unrealistic. There
are ways of achieving this level, but it requires very intensive study and, most likely, either direct contact with
native speakers or, at the very least, an intensive simulated immersion environment. I mention this as it is
tempting to set one's goals at the C1/C2 level.
SELF-IMPROVEMENT PROJECTS
I suspect that many publishing houses view their Self-Study Language Courses as "self-improvement
projects" for which there is a high, initial, entry-level demand. Thus, when it comes to BASIC Self-Study
Language Courses, there are numerous competing courses available. My experience has been that, while
there a few exceptions, the vast majority of these entry-level course are fairly-well conceived and, generally
speaking, they will take the independent-learner to somewhere around the CEFR A2 Skill Level. For popular
languages, such as German, there may well be several hundred competing courses. However, studies show
that most adults who embark on a "self-improvement project", irrespective of their initial enthusiasm, do not
complete their projects, and this includes their self-study of a foreign language. Publishers are quite aware
of this fact and, for this reason, very few of them offer self-study language courses at the Intermediate or
Advanced levels; the market is simply too small. There are, indeed, materials available that operate at the
Intermediate or Advanced levels; however, often, they are not courses in themselves. Rather they are
Supplementary Materials.
YOUR SPECIFIC QUESTIONS
Living Language German Complete
You asked specifically about the Language/dp/0307478556/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433036484&sr= 8-
1&keywords=living+language+german">Living Language German Complete Course. I have a fair
number of "generations" of this course in several languages: German, French, Italian, Spanish. A couple of
years ago, the publisher, Random House, in an effort to "rationalize" their self-study language courses, issued
the current edition by cobbling together the previous edition of their "Complete Basics" series and their
previous "Starting Out" series. Essentially, they removed the first Lesson Unit of the former course and
inserted the essential contents of the latter. There were other changes, but most of them were superficial and
did not affect the course content. While the publisher divided the course contents into "Essential,
Intermediate, Advanced", along with separate books, the course remains a BASIC introduction to the language.
Ignoring the initial phase, essentially speaking, the course introduces the learner to about 2,000 common
"transactional" elements of vocabulary. It also presents the basics of German grammar. The basic vehicle is a
series of 20 situational dialogues of increasing difficulty (this is a common approach). In this particular
method, the Living Language "Units" are separated into Four Lessons that introduce the Words, Phrases,
Sentences, and Conversations. While this seems like a logical and helpful approach, initially, I found it
somewhat disconcerting as some of the individual Phrases and Sentences can seem curious or even bizarre
because they are presented outside of the context of the Conversations. This course will, indeed, provide you
with a very BASIC knowledge of German. I estimate that the level achieved would be A2, provided one actually
assimilates the material. There are countless competing courses of this type; however, they'll all take you to
the A2 level. Once you're about half-way through the Living Language Complete course, you might wish to
begin studying Assimil German With Ease for additional practice and to relieve the boredom.
Fluenz German
You also asked about Fluenz German. From what I have read on a few
Language Blogs, Fluenz is viewed as a fairly-well conceived Language-Learning Software system.
Some people say it's the best language software currently available. I tried their demo and, with the help
of a friend, (shame on me) used a bootleg copy of their German and Italian courses. First, allow me to
reassure you that I am not a Luddite. Nonetheless, I am of the opinion that, despite the successful application
of computer technology to so many fields, it is simply unnecessary for the successful learning of a foreign
language. Countless millions of people have learned to speak multiple languages without the assistance of
computers or even without the assistance of basic, self-study courses. I tried Fluenz and, although I
found it to be well-conceived, I also found it to be tedious. Furthermore, I did not appreciate the experience
of being tied to my computer. Finally, I find it a somewhat expensive fashion to learn the same, basic content
that so many "printed-manual + recorded audio" courses offer. The level achieved would probably be in the
neighborhood of A2. Having ranted a little, I would add that, if Fluenz stimulates you, motivates you,
enthralls you, and if you simply can't get enough of it, then, by all means, use it!
Addendum: Sequencing Materials
Sorry, I overlooked your specific question concerning the sequencing of the two courses above. As they
present equivalent materials, and despite any small differences in vocabulary or emphasis, there is no
particular need to complete both of them and there is no advantage in sequencing one before the other. I
suggest that you simply choose only one of them and supplement your learning with other materials.
For example, once you've reached about the half-way mark of either of these courses, you could begin
Assimil German With Ease. Although Assimil, too, is a basic course, I believe that you would find the
change in approach quite refreshing.
ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS
For English speakers wishing to learn the basics of German, there are quite simply too many resources
available. Furthermore, the vast majority of them are well-conceived. Here's my own list of favourites:
FSI German Basic
The FSI (Foreign Service Institute, U.S. Statement Department) produced numerous BASIC language courses in
the 1960's - 1970's for the training of America's diplomatic personnel. Although the intensive "drill-drill-
drill" method of teaching is no longer in vogue, many users respond well to it (I would be remiss in my
comments if I did not add that some people find the FSI-style method the very essence of boredom). The
materials are FREE on the FSI Languages Website. The audio
recordings are not of the same high quality that one finds in virtually all commercial courses and the notes
are somewhat skeletal, but the drills (if you respond well to the teaching approach) are fabulous.
Assimil German
As mentioned above, Roemer/dp/2700580494/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433039257&sr=8-
1&keywords=assimil+german">Assimil German is composed of, essentially, 100 short dialogues. From
my perspective, the repetition of the Assimil dialogues, in the aggregate, have an effect similar to that of the
FSI-style method. The accompanying notes can be rather obtuse. Nonetheless, the materials are fabulous for
practicing a language. The publisher advertises that a B2 Level can be achieved with their course. However, a
level of A2-B1 seems more realistic. If your French is good enough, or if you're adventurous, you could
follow up their Basic course with their more Advanced offering which, sadly, is not available in English.
Linguaphone German
I will mention the Linguaphone German course more for the
quality and quantity of the lengthy dialogues, as well as the rather Advanced Level of materials available, than
for the teaching method itself. My biggest complaint is that the notes are somewhat obtuse. However, if this
course is used with a basic German Grammar, the student can figure out what the writer should have said.
Pimsleur German
The Pimsleur Method takes an interesting approach to the teaching of the BASICS of a foreign language.
Although a so-called "Reading Guide" accompanies the audio recordings, its contents bear little, if any, direct
relation to the materials presented in the Lesson Units. It is a true ALL AUDIO teaching method. The
individual lessons are designed to be completed in about 30 minutes and there are 30 lessons in a Phase.
Essentially, an English-speaker slowly introduces the new material in English while two native speakers
provide the corresponding German material. As the lessons advance, material from previous lessons is
included so as to reinforce the learning of the preceding lessons. There is something of a "rolling-forward,
looking backward" inclusion of, and letting-go of, material. Thus, unlike most other language programmes,
the actual "practicing" takes place "within the lessons themselves". The objective is to provide the student
with a very basic vocabulary and a general idea of the structure of the language through practice and
inference. The method does, indeed, work, but it is quite lengthy. Since the matter of Grammar is not dealt
with head-on, the student must consult some other source and work some of the details of the language out
for himself. Also, as there is essentially no written material, the student must work backwards from the
audio, with the help a dictionary, to produce his own set of notes (perhaps this is a cleverly-designed, but
deliberately hidden, part of the method). For German, there are currently four Phases (I, II, III, IV) and a fifth
(V) will be released in the near future. Together, the level achieved, save for the rather limited vocabulary,
"might" approach the A2 level. Some people love it, others hate it, and I have a love-hate relationship with it.
The full programme is frightfully expensive and, to be quite frank, given the availability of materials such as
Assimil, Linguaphone, and many others, I really wonder if it is worth the price.
Deutsche Welle Website
There are numerous free websites for learning German. One of the very best is the
Deutsche Welle website.
STUDY METHOD
A KEY element to consider is your STUDY METHOD. While I will refrain from making any specific
recommendations, I suggest that you continue the discussion with your respondents in the HTLAL Forum and
seek advice on how to approach the materials of your choice. The answers might surprise you and, to a large
extent, your success and enjoyment depend on your approach to studying.
THAT'S IT!
You have already received some very sound advice from those who have replied above and I anticipate that
others will continue to add their comments. Enjoy your studies!
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Thank you very much for this long, detailed and passionate reply to my post!
In regards to the questions asked in the first paragraph, rhetorical or not, I'll answer them for the benefit of
others seeking to respond to my post:
1) "For example, are you seeking general knowledge useful to a traveller or, alternatively, would you like to
achieve a high level of conversational and writing ability?" I would like to achieve a high level of conservational
and writing ability.
2) "Have you had previous experiences with independent-study of a language and, if so, how did that work
out for you?" No, I have not. Unfortunately, I'm not studying a language in school either.
3) "Also, given that you're likely still at school, how much time can you realistically devote to your
independent study of German?" I have a lot of free time, though I'd probably have to study after school at
home, but even then I say I'd have 2-3 hours of free time to study.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Elexi
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5563 days ago
938 posts - 1840 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: French, German, Latin
| Message 11 of 11 21 June 2015 at 3:35pm | IP Logged |
It is also the case that courses fit people differently. I personally swear by starting
a language with the Oxford Take Off series - but no-one here recommends them. Likewise,
I don't find the note system in the Linguaphone courses to be obtuse in the slightest -
but I do find there is a sudden learning ramp in them around lesson 13. In addition
experience has taught me that Assimil doesn't work with me until I have got to a False
Beginner level. I am sure this is not true for others, but it is for me.
This is where either being a millionaire or have a good local library and (if available)
the inter-library loan system comes in handy. Look around what is free to find out the
style of material you like.
2 persons have voted this message useful
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