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Using both "ei" and "-a" in Norwegian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4290 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 1 of 5 05 July 2015 at 3:46am | IP Logged |
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I tried to search in Norwegian for "hunkjønn" qbout using both (at the same time) "ei"
as ubestemt entall and "-a" for bestemt entall for hunkjønn words in Norwegian Bokmål, but did not find too many, or at least nothing clear, detailed nor informative. I generally use the full reach of the three genders in Bokmål, i.e. ei mor/mora, ei bok/boka, ei jente/jenta, ei strand/stranda, etc. One of the books that I used, På vei, says that, if I understand correctly, that even those who use three genders has a geographical variation, but also opting for "-en" as bestemt entall is more formel. What exactly is the geographical spread of the people who use three genders in both ubstemt and bestemt entall hunkjønn forms in Norway? And which people use the ubestemt entall for hunkjønn and the ubstemt entall hankjønn for hunkjønn words? My level is not super high so perhaps I should not be so worried, but I would like a bit of clarification on how things work with this particular part of Norwegian grammar. Takk på forhånd! Edited by 1e4e6 on 05 July 2015 at 3:52am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4639 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 2 of 5 06 July 2015 at 3:46pm | IP Logged |
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I don't think I can give you a totally comprehensive reply, and the language situation in Norway is particularly complex, given the large number of alternative forms not only with regard to masculine/feminine vs. common gender, but also as regards verb forms, pronouns etc. However, I'll reply in broad terms, and other fellow Norwegians may have more accurate details to provide:
Most Norwegian dialects use the masculine, feminine and neuter forms of both indefinite (en, ei, et) and definite (-en, -a, -et) article. This is certainly the case for the dialects of Southern, Western and Northern Norway which all belong to what is called "Vestnorsk". A notable exception is the dialect of Bergen which only uses the "en" form for both masculine and feminine). It is mostly in "Østnorsk", the dialects spoken in what we call Østlandet, that is the Eastern part of Southern Norway, that you will find a tendency to use less feminine forms. In particular in what is called Standard østnorsk there is a preference for using the indefinite article "en" for all feminine nouns, even if you use the definite form with the ending -a. For example, I would say: en ku - kua (a cow, the cow) en jente - jenta (a girl, the girl) Standard østnorsk is basically the spoken language that is closest to written Bokmål, it has its nucleus in Oslo and the surrounding county of Akershus, but apparently Standard østnorsk is expanding, replacing other East Norwegian dialects across this area of Norway. There used to be a link between use of feminine forms and economic/social class: working class people and leftwingers would use the "ei" and "-a" forms, while conservative upper middle class would avoid any feminine forms, and effectively only have to genders, common (masculine) and neuter (like in the Bergen dialect). However, that class distinction in language is gradually disappearing it seems, and the model of "standard østnorsk" with indefinite feminine article "en" and definite article "-a" is becoming a kind of "norm" in spoken language across Eastern Norway. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Camundonguinho Triglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4749 days ago 273 posts - 500 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English, Spanish Studies: Swedish | Message 3 of 5 06 July 2015 at 9:31pm | IP Logged |
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Even among ''allowed'' feminines (by the normative Bokmaalsordboka) some are more frequent in writing as well as dialects, and some are not as frequent:
a woman, the woman is almost always en kvinne, kvinnen (kvinna is allowed but rare, young people prefer ei dame - dama anyway) a spouse, the spouse is almost always en/ei kone, kona just like the girl is jenta (only in Bergen konen and jenten are used) -het words are almost always -heten (although these words can be feminine too: friheta ''the freedom'' but this is rare) historie...when used as a school subject it's always masculine, when used as a story it may be feminine (but it's not frequent) -ing words are increasingly feminine since this usage has been allowed in Bokmaal since 2005, so ski queen is ''skidronninga'', and left wing politicians using Bokmaal (except for those from Bergen and West Oslo) like to say ''regjeringa'' instead of ''regjeringen'' Feminine articles as used in ''radical Bokmaal'' are in line with urban dialects of Larvik, Kristiansand, Ålesund , Stavanger and Tromsø, in Trondheim-made Bokmaal newspapers you can see even -a neutrals (navna, husa, dyra) and preterite/participle (jeg ble overraska) but this may be too radical in Oslo-published press (except for Klassekampen and Dagbladet). The most radical usage would be use femine for all words which can be feminine, according to the normative dictionary (Bokmaalsordboka): ei kvinne, kvinna, ei historie, historia, ei frihet, friheta etc. [1] ''Moderately radical'' usage [2] would be likened to a) avoiding extremely marked radical forms such as ei kvinne, kvinna (these sound too Nynorsk-like) and use ei dame - dama instead. b) -het words are normally masculinized in 'moderately radical' Bokmaal as well as words like historie.. c) but -ing is feminine (except when denoting male people). In conservative Bokmaal, only a handful of f/m words is preferably feminized: jenta, kua, øya, hytta, kona. [3] (Between [2] and [3] there are 1000 shades of personal tastes, some people use both boken and boka, solen and sola etc. interchangeably or have a preference for one form) These are also considered -a words in Riksmaal, but in Bergen Bokmaal (as used in Bergen newspapers) these are masculine: jenten, kuen, øyen, hytten, konen, as in older Riksmaal. From more conservative to more radical Bokmål-forms Den første natten alene i leiligheten Den første natta alene i leiligheten Den første natta aleine i leiligheten Den første natta aleine i leiligheta (natta is used in all of Norway except for Bergen and Oslo-West, aleine is used in Larvik, Bergen and Tromsø leiligheta is not used much in some parts of Norway, for example in Far North) compare with (Den fyrste natta åleine i leilegheita - the most conservative Nynorsk form) Edited by Camundonguinho on 06 July 2015 at 10:02pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4290 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 4 of 5 08 July 2015 at 7:33am | IP Logged |
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I see, I knew about the nouns, but not so much about the past participles. With regards
to the class divisions, how are foreigners' usage viewed? For example, is it weird if a foreigner who has no roots in Norway uses the pairs of the ubestemt and bestemt hunkjønn entall forms sound weird? I have no Norwegian ancestry, but I am from a working class background. Or is it more normal that foreigners just go for the Standard østnorsk? My closest Norwegian friend is from Asker, which I think is in Akershus. I wrote in part of a long message, "...sola skinner jo nesten hele dagen..." but she did not react weirdly. Well at least the message was grammatically correct. Edited by 1e4e6 on 08 July 2015 at 7:54am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4639 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 5 of 5 08 July 2015 at 11:29am | IP Logged |
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I don't think anyone would react negatively if you go for the clear distinction masculine/feminine with both indefinite and definite articles. After all, unless you can pass as a native speaker, they will know you have learnt Norwegian somewhere, somehow, and your Norwegian will have been influenced by your learning materials/teachers/Norwegian friends.
Asker is in Akershus, yes, about half an hour's drive from the centre of Oslo. As for your example, saying "sola" is quite common also in standard østnorsk. I don't know if your friend is a native "Askerbøring", but if she is, she probably speaks standard østnorsk and even if she says "sola", I am pretty sure she would say "en sol" and not "ei sol". 1 person has voted this message useful |
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