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Dativ and personal pronouns in Romanian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Tiberius Diglot Groupie Moldova lawinmoldova.blogspoRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6294 days ago 70 posts - 85 votes  Studies: Romanian, Russian*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 1 of 8 24 October 2009 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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I asked this question once on this forum, but probably chose the wrong topic for that.
So, I've decided to ask it again in this section of the forum. And hope to find someone who could help me. I actually speak Romanian quite well. But I still need some help with some grammar, so I would be really grateful if someone helped me with that. The most difficult part of Romanian for me at the moment is pronouns and cases. I wonder if anyone studying Romanian experienced the same problems as I did and could master them. The problems are with Cazurile Dativ si Acuzativ. There are 4 cases in Romanian (well, 5 with Vocativ, but the latter is not a problem at all). In Russian, which is my Mother tongue, there are 6 cases. And there are also Dative and Accusative, as well as in Romanian. And generally, the idea of these two cases in both languages coincide. But the problem starts when some nouns with some verbs are used in Russian in Accusative, but in Romanian their analogues are used in Dative. And vice versa. I'm trying to get (to feel, I would even say) the underlying idea by reading a lot and putting particular attention to those cases. And still without much success. So, if you can get an advice on that, this would be great. Another problem is using personal pronouns in Dativ and Acusativ. And mainly, what I can't understand is when to use them and when not. I can't get the idea. In some situations when I think there's no need at all in a certain pronoun it is actually used, and in some other situations, when I think there must be a pronoun in Dativ or Acusativ, there's none. These 2 problems really irritate me as I can't get the idea behind the way they're used. I discussed this problem with some native speakers and got no help from them, as for them the correct usage was quite obvious, so that they didn't even understand how there can be a problem at all... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiberius Diglot Groupie Moldova lawinmoldova.blogspoRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6294 days ago 70 posts - 85 votes Studies: Romanian, Russian*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 2 of 8 29 October 2009 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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Is there anybody out there who can help me with the described problems?
There were some native Romanian speakers on this forum... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cristiana Diglot Newbie Romania Joined 6006 days ago 31 posts - 38 votes Speaks: Romanian*, English Studies: Russian | Message 3 of 8 29 October 2009 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | ||
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The way we were taught in school, Dative is when you *give*/do something *to* someone (dativ - "a da"). Vocative is well, Vocative, difficult to confuse with other cases, Genitive is when it's someone's, Nominative is when the noun is the subject of the sentence and Accusative is everything else :) That goes for pronouns as well.
This is probably not very helpful for a non-native speaker. I'll try looking for a Romanian as a second language textbook where they might have an actual proper grammar rule for that. Cases were a pain for me to learn too, even in my native language (we had to learn to identify which case was used where, not how to use them properly, but still). Eventually though, if you practice enough you'll be sure to end up getting a feel for them :) I read your post in the thread created by Iversen. Your Romanian is very, very good, congratulations :) I saw someone already corrected your mistakes. Keep up the good work! Edited by Cristiana on 29 October 2009 at 6:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiberius Diglot Groupie Moldova lawinmoldova.blogspoRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6294 days ago 70 posts - 85 votes Studies: Romanian, Russian*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 4 of 8 29 October 2009 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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Multumesc, Cristina.
Vad ca noi ambii suntem din Moldova :)) Suntem foarte putini pe acest forum. Eu-s vorbitor de limba rusa, dar e rusine pentru mine ca, traind in Moldova, vorbesc engleza mai bine. Si acum doresc sa perfectionez Romana mea. Incercam sa gasesc vreun manual bun si calitativ de Romana ca limba straina. Dar n-am aflat nici prin librarii la Chisinau, nici prin Internet. Daca vorbim despre Dativ si Acuzativ, da, regula general e acea despre care ai scris. E tot aceeasi ca si in Rusa. Dar. Iata un exemplu cu verbul "a cere". Dupa cate stiu se foloseste impreuna cu Dativ, de exemplu, "Eu iti cer ceva". Corect? CUI eu cer? Si aici nu inteleg de loc de ce se foloseste Dativ. In rusa, de exemplu este folosit Acuzativ (Я прошу КОГО? - ТЕБЯ; in Romana ar fi - Eu TE cer PE TINE, ceea ce e incorect). Daca luam verbul "a ruga" care are aceiasi sens. In cazul dat eu as spune "Eu TE rog", folosind Acuzativul. Asadar, doua verbe cu sensuri asemanatoare, dar care se folosec in moduri diferite. De ce - nu inteleg. :))) Nici un manual nu-mi da raspuns. Cum a spus deja ongaby, trebuie sa simti limba. Cred ca pentru aceasta trebuie sa citesc cat mai multe carti in Romana... :) Edited by Tiberius on 29 October 2009 at 9:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiberius Diglot Groupie Moldova lawinmoldova.blogspoRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6294 days ago 70 posts - 85 votes Studies: Romanian, Russian*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 5 of 8 30 October 2009 at 12:14am | IP Logged | ||
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At the moderator's insistence I give the translation of my last post in this topic:
"Thank you, Cristina. I see that we're both from Moldova :)) We're very few on this forum. My mother language is Russian, but it's a shame on me that living in Moldova I speak English better. And now I want to improve my Romanian. I've been trying to find a good and qualitative textbook of Romanian as foreign language. But I haven't found one neither in bookshops in Chisinau nor on Internet. If talking about Dative and Accusative, yes, the general rule is just the one you wrote about. It's the same as in Russian. But. Here's an example with the verb "a cere". To the best of my knowledge it's used with Dative, e.g., "Eu iti cer ceva". Right? CUI eu cer? And here I can't understand at all why the Dative is used. In Russian it is Accusative (Я прошу КОГО? - ТЕБЯ; in Romanian it would be - Eu TE cer PE TINE, what is incorrect). If we take the verb "a ruga" which has quite the same meaning, in this case I would say "Eu TE rog", using the Accusative. So, there two verbs with similar meanings which are used in different ways. I can't understand why. :))) None of the textbooks provided me with the answer. As ongaby has already said you have to feel the language. I think that for that I need to read as many books in Romanian as possible... :)" 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Xenon Tetraglot Newbie Canada Joined 5638 days ago 14 posts - 17 votes Speaks: Romanian*, English, Italian, French Studies: Russian, German | Message 6 of 8 30 October 2009 at 6:52am | IP Logged | ||
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I hope that my corrections will help a little bit:
"Si acum doresc sa-mi perfectionez romana" "regula generala e aceea" "eu iti cer TIE" There is no RULE here...it is an EXCEPTION ..verbul "a cere" cere dativ :) ( the verb "a cere" demands Dativ) And unfortunately, Romanian has many exceptions. Do not worry! In my opinion you write very well. And being in Moldova I think that, if you really want, you can make some Romanian speaking friends who can help you. Edited by Xenon on 19 December 2009 at 5:09am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Tiberius Diglot Groupie Moldova lawinmoldova.blogspoRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6294 days ago 70 posts - 85 votes Studies: Romanian, Russian*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 7 of 8 30 October 2009 at 9:42am | IP Logged | ||
Thank you for corrections, Xenon.
So, here's the clue. And I think that is why my Romanian friends coudn't understand is what the essence of my problem, these exceptions were so natural for them, that they actually hadn't perceived them as exceptions. The problem still remains in detecting those exceptions. Even DEX (of which I'm completely unsatisfied) gives no clue to that. So, once again, reading as many books in Romanian seems to be the only way... And of course, communicating as much as possible with Romanian-speaking people here in my country... Edited by Tiberius on 30 October 2009 at 9:44am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6017 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 8 of 8 30 October 2009 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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It's not necessarily about exceptions, but maybe about different ways of thinking.
In English, for example, I can "say something to someone", I can "tell something to someone", but I cannot "*ask something to someone". Here the pattern changes and it is confusing to speakers of many other languages, because in general the pattern is consistent across all three cases (because each case refers to a speech act). Instead we can only "ask someone something". The logic here is that by asking, you are changing the person -- they are directly affected. So while one language may see someone as not affected by an action, another does. I don't know what "a cere" means, but I'm sure you will be able to see in terms of "directly affected" vs "only affected indirectly" if you think about it. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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