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Latvia - bilingual country? (s/w localiza | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes  Speaks: Russian* | Message 9 of 22 25 March 2012 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Chung, do you think that Russophones in latvia have better Latvian than Swedes in
Finland? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 10 of 22 25 March 2012 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The tag diglossia is not appropriate here.
Diglossia involves two forms of the same language, one is considered H(igh), one is L(ow). Examples of diglossia: Arabic, Tamil, Kannada. When there are two languages, we speak of bilingualism. So, when we speak of diglossia in Morocco, we are not comparing Arabic with Berber, but the local dialect of Arabic with the standard written Arabic. Edited by Medulin on 25 March 2012 at 3:43pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 11 of 22 25 March 2012 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 12 of 22 25 March 2012 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think that I get your question... Based on my experience in Finland, and this description for Latvia, I gather that the degree to which the minority knows the majority's language is overall similar with deviation from the overall result depending on where you go (e.g. Åland for Finland, Daugavpils for Latvia). My impression for both countries is that the majority of the minority seems to know the majority's language at intermediate level or greater, but for Latvia I am relying mainly on outsiders' impressions (which may not be that bad since the fuzzy bilingualism of the country is less likely to become an emotional subject than it is for people there who live with it every day). A couple of Fennoswedes whom I met in Turku were dating each other and I remember that the girlfriend could speak Finnish pretty much as well as Swedish and English. The boyfriend however admitted that he couldn't speak Finnish that well, and instead alternated between English and Swedish. On the other hand, A Fennoswede whom I got to know in Helsinki can speak Finnish and Swedish equally well and both better than English. He later told me that his social circles have been often dominated by speakers of Finnish which explains why his bilingualism is quite even (he's also studying at one of the Swedish colleges in Finland). I was slightly surprised that he was a Fennoswede since I had never once heard him speak Swedish even though a couple of our mutual friends were Fennoswedes. I had always thought that he was a "Finnish" Finn. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 13 of 22 25 March 2012 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I would hazard that it's a limited diglossia since based on what Evita has posted Russian is excluded only from the government (e.g. governmental services). Otherwise Russian is used in religion (i.e. Orthodox churches) and media/news (e.g. Telegraf, Delfi). It does though seem more limited in education since Russian is treated as a minority language and so the mandate for Russian in education doesn't extend to higher education. However this opens another can of worms by determining how far to go with a minority language. For better or worse, Russian carries historical baggage in Latvia because of the recent past and it may take a few more generations before it loses that sufficiently so that the language may extend further (assuming popular interest and/or the numbers of the minority whenever it happens). In any case, Evita's post indicates that the absence of a Latvian university that uses Russian as the primary language doesn't seem as contentious or scandalous as one would think despite the size of the Russian-speaking minority. P.S. As a comparison, the first Slovak university using Hungarian as the primary teaching language opened in 2004 or 86 years after (Czecho)Slovakia was formed from the Hungarian Kingdom/Austria-Hungary and the creation of an instant Hungarian minority of roughly 10% of the new country's population. Hungarian has had a lot of baggage among Slovaks because of Hungarian rule of about 1000 years. Among other things it took a while before that faded sufficiently to allow for the political will to fund a university for the language. Edited by Chung on 25 March 2012 at 6:35pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 14 of 22 25 March 2012 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think that the general knowledge of Latvian among Russian speakers in Latvia is lower
than that of Finnish among Finnoswedes. The difference is that Russian has been recently used in these spheres, and was forbidden by the state. I heard there was high education in some European languages in Latvia but not in widely spoken Russian. Signs and names of streets are written in English in daugavpils, but not in Russian despite it is a Russian speaking city. What do you mean by it si used in religion? Church Slavonic is generally used in the ROC. Edited by Марк on 25 March 2012 at 7:06pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 15 of 22 25 March 2012 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Really? Evita and viedums have reported that Russophones aren't that clueless about Latvian even though there do indeed exist those in the minority who don't want to use Latvian or are incapable of using it to any practical extent.
I was referring to the definition of diglossia where the prestigious language's status arises from being used in certain spheres - religion being one of them. I reiterate that Latvian society is somewhat diglossic since Russian is actively in some prestigious spheres. However, you're right that Russian Orthodox services are normally held in Church Slavonic - Russian isn't used too often but the diglossic relationship isn't the same since it's not as if the otherwise prestigious Latvian were crowding out Russian in the church. Your remaining points though go back to Russian having political baggage which makes discussion lively or heated but ultimately unproductive since one here can't really "prove" someone's political allegiance/ideological stance as invalid or inadmissible. As much as I understand much of the Latvian government's rationale on languages, I wouldn't want to be in its place because it's too damned awkward for reasons beyond its control (i.e. as I implied the Soviet past still affects Russian's perception there and unduly elevates Latvian as a kind of badge against the unwanted control from the Kremlin. We could argue forever about how "fair" that is, but the truth is that nothing that we say in cyberspace will change the situation quickly). None of us can really change that perception quickly and I'm apt to believe that it'll take a few more decades before one can contemplate Russian extending further officially in Latvia (cf. example of that Hungarian university in Slovakia). Furthermore there are enough extremists on both sides who get more attention than moderate thinking thus keeping decisions/judgements about language policy blunt, histrionic and polarizing. Their views make for juicy sound bites and rousing stories for anyone raised on that slop, but as a curmudgeon I deliberately avoid hitching myself to the shrillest or most bomastic voices. If I were the minister responsible for language in Latvia, I would be very tempted to imprison all Latvian and Russian nationalists (who flatter themselves by imagining to be "patriots", "defenders" or "activists") in the country just to get some peace and quiet and find additional sustainable ways to deal with bilingualism. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Evita Tetraglot Senior Member Latvia learnlatvian.info Joined 6553 days ago 734 posts - 1036 votes Speaks: Latvian*, English, German, Russian Studies: Korean, Finnish | Message 16 of 22 25 March 2012 at 8:08pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Just to give another perspective on this. If you want to get a job in customer service in Riga (at a store, at a hotel or restaurant or anything else) you have to know both Latvian and Russian. It's not mandated by law but all employers require it because they know they will have a lot of Russian customers. Now, if we look at people aged under 30 (and even more so under 25), who are more likely to know both languages - Latvians or Russians? The answer is Russians, of course, because they learned Latvian at school and they can hear it all around them. In contrast, many Latvian children didn't learn Russian at all (they studied English and German instead) because of emotional and historical reasons. So Russian youth clearly has the advantage here.
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