Mandarin Chi vs Qi vs Ji (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Mandarin Chi vs Qi vs Ji
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Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages

22 messages over 3 pages: 1 2 3

egill
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Message 17 of 22

29 February 2012 at 7:21pm | IP Logged

Wulfgar wrote:

I interpreted the question to be "how do I produce and recognize" rather than "what's
the difference between" the sounds,
because I sensed that's what the op needed, but maybe I was wrong. Anyway, I am almost
100% ignorant of linguistic
terms, as you can see from my very basic description of aspiration.

But your description is correct! My point is that aspiration is also important
in producing and recognizing the sounds.

Wulfgar wrote:

Regardless, even if someone told a well versed person like yourself that the difference
in the sounds was aspiration, I
doubt if that would help you produce or recognize the sounds. Tongue position is much
more helpful for me, provided I
have something to listen to. L1 examples plus a transformation, ala sinosplice, is the
best of all, imo.

If you want to know how I'd describe the differences, just read the descriptions in
sinosplice. Imo, it's much more useful
than linguistic terms, especially for people who don't know them. For example:

Wow, I've never been accused of being well-versed before. The thing is if you told me
that Mandarin had primarily an aspiration distinction, it would definitely help me to
learn the sound. This is for the same reasons that tongue diagrams (which you seem to
like) are so helpful: they give a (somewhat) objective description of what is actually
going on. Oftentimes, especially when we first start to learn a language our ears are
not to be trusted, as we have not learned to hear distinctions between certain
phonemes. We often conflate foreign sounds with that of our L1 phonology, so it's good
to have things like diagrams, transcriptions, and yes L1 example plus transformations.

Tldr version: aspiration, which is an accompanying puff of air, is completely separate
from tongue position, that is two sounds can be differentiated by the presences of this
puff of air even if they have the same tongue position, e.g. p/b. Therefore it is
important to learn both tongue position as well as aspiration (and other
relevant features).
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MixedUpCody
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Message 18 of 22

29 February 2012 at 7:30pm | IP Logged

To all,

My original question was relating to how to pronounce and identify the different sounds, and the thread has answered that. Everyone has been super helpful, and the resources provided were invaluable. Thanks again.

Cody
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Wulfgar
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Message 19 of 22

29 February 2012 at 8:06pm | IP Logged

egill wrote:

But your description is correct!

I'm shocked :)

egill wrote:

My point is that aspiration is also important
in producing and recognizing the sounds.

point taken

Wulfgar wrote:

Wow, I've never been accused of being well-versed before.

I've read a lot of your old posts. Maybe you're not an expert, but you know your stuff.

Wulfgar wrote:

Tldr version: aspiration, which is an accompanying puff of air, is completely separate
from tongue position, that is two sounds can be differentiated by the presences of this
puff of air even if they have the same tongue position, e.g. p/b. Therefore it is
important to learn both tongue position as well as aspiration (and other
relevant features).

I realize we're talking about two different things going on in the mouth at the same time. But could you explain why you say aspiration is the main difference? Also, as
someone who knows these terms pretty well, how do you usually go about learning pronunciation?
1 person has voted this message useful

egill
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Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch

Message 20 of 22

01 March 2012 at 6:08am | IP Logged

Wulfgar wrote:

I realize we're talking about two different things going on in the mouth at the same
time. But could you explain why you say aspiration is the main difference? Also, as
someone who knows these terms pretty well, how do you usually go about learning
pronunciation?

It's the main difference in the pairs b/p, d/t, g/k, z/c, zh/ch, and j/q. For each set,
the mouth and tongue are positioned in the same way. The differences is that there is
an accompanying puff of air in the second item of each pair. So diagrams are useful for
getting us to the right position for each of the pairs, making or not making the puff of
air differentiates the two.

It's confusing because in English, we have a voicing distinction which is often also
accompanied by aspiration, e.g. bin is voiced/unaspirated and pin is
unvoiced/aspirated. Aspirated means there's a puff of air, and voiced means the vocal
chords vibrate. To simplify it a bit: in English, the core difference is the voicing,
and the aspiration is incidental. For example, spin is unvoiced/unaspirated, but
we still consider it a "p" sound.

In Mandarin it's the opposite, the aspiration is the distinguishing feature and
canonically they aren't voiced at all in isolation. In reality voicing isn't a
binary affair and they are actually "a little voiced". Additionally, they may become voiced in
various contexts, but the core difference is still that puff of air.

I don't really have a special method of pronunciation learning. I do personally like to
start off by reading a bunch of dry materials about phonetics/phonology, so I have an
idea of what to look out for. Then, just like everyone else, I take the audio and try
to imitate the speaker as closely as possible. I find that knowing what my mouth is
supposed to be doing helps out a lot, even if it takes me a long time to
actually do it.

Edited by egill on 01 March 2012 at 6:13am
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jeff_lindqvist
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Message 21 of 22

01 March 2012 at 10:38am | IP Logged

I couldn't have said it better myself. This is exactly the kind of explanation I would like if I knew nothing about Mandarin phonology. If I only could vote several times for your post...
1 person has voted this message useful

Wulfgar
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Message 22 of 22

01 March 2012 at 12:11pm | IP Logged

egill wrote:

It's the main difference in the pairs b/p, d/t, g/k, z/c, zh/ch, and j/q

That makes sense. Thanks!

1 person has voted this message useful

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