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Ancient Greek Dialects? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| crafedog Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5819 days ago 166 posts - 337 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Korean, Tok Pisin, French | Message 1 of 10 10 March 2012 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hello
I was about to buy a book on Ancient Greek but I read a review saying that it was one particular dialect (I forget which) and this got me thinking about which Ancient Greek dialect I should learn. Could someone answer any of the following questions about Ancient Greek dialects for me? I've been searching the forum/Wikipedia for more info on them but I've yet to find anything really useful/concrete (if you have some good links that cover these questions then please share). Q1. Which dialect is the most commonly studied? Q2. How many dialects would I need to read Socrates, the Titanomachy and the New Testament? Is it 3? Q3. How mutually intelligible are they? Q4. Would learning one of them make learning another one easier (like learning the older forms first)?/How much longer would it take to learn another dialect after having learnt one already? Q5. A loaded-question but are any of the dialects noticeably easier or more difficult than another? Q6. Which dialect is Assimil and Athenaze in? Thank you for your answers to any of these questions. Edited by crafedog on 10 March 2012 at 3:59pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cmj Octoglot Groupie Switzerland Joined 5339 days ago 58 posts - 191 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Arabic (classical), Latin, Italian | Message 2 of 10 10 March 2012 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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The issue of dialects in Greek is relatively complex. The main ones that are studied today are Epic (or
Homeric), Attic, and Koine, since these are the main vehicles of Greek literature. Epic is the dialect used by the poets of the classical literary tradition, primarily Hesiod and Homer. Attic was the dialect of Athens and is hence the language of the playwrights (although there are some elements imported from other dialects), the philosophers (Plato and Aristotle), Thucydides and the classical orators. Koine (from the Greek for "common") is the dialect that was used throughout the Greek speaking world after Alexander the Great's conquests and was the vehicle for all subsequent Ancient Greek literature, including the New Testament. Some people recommend that you study Homeric first, since it is the oldest of the dialects and was the language of the founding texts of Greek culture. In my opinion there are several difficulties with this view: 1) Homeric Greek is actually an artificial dialect grounded in old Ionic (a dialect closely related to Attic) but drawing on a huge number of elements from all the other Greek dialects, as well as from a long tradtion of oral poetry. This means that the morphology is a complete mess, since the poets used whatever form of the word fit into a given line and there are very ancient forms alongside very modern ones. This is a major headache for a beginner. 2) Poetry in Greek (and Latin) is diffcult to read because the syntax is very strange. Since it is a heavily inflecting language, you don't need to place elements together, for example adjectives with their corresponding nouns; you can tell what belongs with what just by how they are declined. If you are learning the language, however, the declensions are quite unnantural and it becomes almost like doing a puzzle, finding all the elements that go together. This is true of prose too, but much less so. 3) If you are learning Epic Greek, all you have to practice on are the ancient poems and they are, in my opinion, among the hardest works to read in Greek. The other two dialects have works at all levels of difficulty. Out of Attic and Koine, I would strongly recommend Attic if you are interested in the whole literary tradition and not just the New Testament. Koine is a sort of simplified Attic that has borrowed elements from other dialects. If you read Attic, you can read Koine with very little difficulty, but the reverse is not true. Most introductory texts not designed for seminary students teach Attic (including Athenaze and Assimil). There is a wealth of literature and almost from the beginning you can read Plato's simple Socratic dialogues (Socrates himself did not write anything), and there is even a textbook called "Learning Greek with Plato". With Attic under your belt, it is a cinch to learn koine, particularly the highly simplified Koine of the New Testament and you also have a strong base to approach Homeric. With knowledge of Attic, you can easily recognize variant forms that would overwhelm a beginner, although you will still have to learn new vocabulary. (I assume by reading the Titanomachy you mean reading Hesiod, so Epic is necessary at some point). Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions. Edited by cmj on 10 March 2012 at 5:12pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Lukos Tetraglot Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4844 days ago 8 posts - 18 votes Speaks: English*, German, Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 3 of 10 10 March 2012 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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To support cmj's thorough post:
It's most practical and quite standard to learn the Attic dialect first. If you have a strong foundation in that, the other dialects can be acquired with relative ease; you should be able to read, e.g., Homer and Hesiod after a year of Attic with the help of a short introduction (as is found in most readers) and your dictionary (Liddell-Scott or Gemoll, although Autenrieth's Homeric Dictionary is also helpful for students beginning to read epic). Athenaze is Attic dialect, although I'd not recommend it. I'm not familiar with the Assimil. Hansen and Quinn are all right, as is the JACT introduction to Greek (you should learn the accentuation better than they teach it, though -- Smyth's Grammar or HQ can help with that) and some of the older books, such as John William White's First Greek Book. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| quendidil Diglot Senior Member Singapore Joined 6313 days ago 126 posts - 142 votes Speaks: Mandarin, English* Studies: Japanese | Message 4 of 10 10 March 2012 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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Read this article.
Assimil teaches Attic, but the realization of the pitch accents differs a bit between the different narrators. Edited by quendidil on 10 March 2012 at 6:14pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5600 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 5 of 10 10 March 2012 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | ||
I find Aeolic Greek the hardest and do not think that I will ever read Sappho or Alcaeos with ease. It is the most divergent from the Attic "standard" you learn in introductory courses. I like Doric very much, when I am looking for dialectic diversion. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| akkadboy Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5409 days ago 264 posts - 497 votes Speaks: French*, English, Yiddish Studies: Latin, Ancient Egyptian, Welsh | Message 6 of 10 12 March 2012 at 8:52am | IP Logged | ||
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I've not much to add.
I would recommand Attic or Koine, depending on what you want to read. Another factor may be that Koine is easier. Lukos, can you develop why you do not recommand Athenaze ? I used it as a false beginner and found it quite good. The fact that it does not use authentic texts right from the beginning enables the learner to read a lot of Greek. I think it's a great way to keep motivated. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Lukos Tetraglot Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4844 days ago 8 posts - 18 votes Speaks: English*, German, Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 7 of 10 12 March 2012 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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To be honest, I found the layout of the book and introduction of concepts massively disorganised, especially (and
this is my main quibble) how they introduce the verbs -- bit by bit rather than all six principal parts together from the beginning, which is much more efficient, even if you don't learn the (e.g.) passive aorist for a while. The result is that many students who started on this as absolute (not false) beginners enter into Greek courses without a firm grasp of verb forms. I find also the use of non-authentic texts problematic. There are easy texts in Greek that one can read from the start with only a little modification (likewise in Hansen and Quinn, a reader should focus on the real passages rather than the exercises about Homer's brother sacrificing goats in the agora...) and reading real Greek would keep me (at least) more motivated than stories about Philip's brother! But to each his own. The best foundations in any language must be built by oneself and with one's own intelligence, but good books and teachers can help make the process easier. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| akkadboy Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5409 days ago 264 posts - 497 votes Speaks: French*, English, Yiddish Studies: Latin, Ancient Egyptian, Welsh | Message 8 of 10 12 March 2012 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, the fact that I was a false beginner may have helped me to overcome this problem. Thanks for your insight !
I liked this book because it allowed me to read a lot and to read a long, coherent story rather than (often overly simplified) disconnected bits of "real" Greek. But, as you said, to each his own. I have a friend who wants to learn Ancient Greek, maybe I should use him as a guinea-pig to see how good Athenaze is :) Edited by akkadboy on 12 March 2012 at 2:40pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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