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Practical use of flash cards | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| zoleero Newbie Sweden Joined 5615 days ago 6 posts - 6 votes Speaks: Swedish | Message 1 of 18 20 July 2009 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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It seems like most of you agree on using phrases or sentences, instead of just words, on flash cards. However this has raised some questions that I would like to discuss.
1. Words that have many different meanings, how do I manage them? Should I write different cards for each meaning? Or should I write one phrase on L2-side and corresponding phrase on L1-side with all the meanings, for the translated L2-word, underneath? 2. Suppose that you have 2 flash cards that contain phrases with the same L2-word. Each time these cards appear, I get different phrases, but how do I know witch word there is on the L1-side (that specific meaning that I am trying to learn in this specific flash card)? Should I in some way conceive phrases that put the word in such context that makes it impossible not to be able to figure out witch meaning, in your native language, that you seek? 3. When should one start using flash cards with phrases on them? In the beginning when you do not have such good understanding of the language, it can be hard to conceive phrases that are correct. Do you have any thoughts on that? 4. On L2-side, do you write both the word and a contextual phrase for that word? And on L1-side, do you write the translated phrase and the meanings for the word also? Or do you simply just have a corresponding phrase on both sides? I would like some general recommendations about handling synonyms (and words that have many meanings in you native language) overall and in conjunction with use of flash cards. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| ic32987 Groupie United States Joined 6346 days ago 50 posts - 54 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 2 of 18 20 July 2009 at 9:19pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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These are questions that, as new to this method, I also struggle with. From the alljapaneseallthetime.com site, I've read that for your question (1) you should only worry about the word in the context of that particular sentence. If the word comes up in a different context, use a completely different sentence.
Your question (2) is a bit confusing for me...but the best method for sentence/SRS is to have the target language sentence on the A side, and the translation/keywords on the B side (so you're doing target language --> native tongue). (3) is a big issue for me. So what I've decided is to input the textbook/language learning program dialogue and example sentences into the SRS. This way, you should be able to have at least a basic understanding of the sentence prior to using a 'flashcard.' I imagine after doing vocab/sentences from any given program or text, you'd have a good enough foundation to move onto more authentic works. I'm also likely going to use children's books (easy syntax and such). (4) again, it seems the best method is to use L2 on the front side, and keywords or translation in L1 on the back side. www.alljapaneseallthetime.com 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6017 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 3 of 18 20 July 2009 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
First of all, there's more than two types of flashcards. A lot of people think that there's only two types, but everyone has a different two in their heads. The common "word flashcard" is a word on one side, and a one-word translation on the other. The common "sentence flashcard" is a sentence on one side with a translation on the other. These can them be used either way round (or both ways on different days). It seems to me that you're talking about something different.
If you're doing basic sentence flashcards, this question need never arise. I suspect your thinking of something more like "dictionary flashcards". The basic dictionary flashcard is a word on one side, and a dictionary definition on the other. I seem to recall a teacher trying these in my primary school (English words for English speakers, monolingual definitions) and quickly giving up. They're pointless because you can't prove to yourself you know it, short of memorising the entire definition. Which would be monumentally dull. So you look at it, kind of go "meh. I know it" and that's it. No motivation at all. What it sounds like you're doing is trying to make a bilingual dictionary flashcard set with examples on the face rather than a single word. This will again suffer from a lack of any objective way to prove to yourself that you actually know the word.
Use examples from your textbooks or other things you read and that are at your level of comprehension. If you make your own sentences, you risk reinforcing your own errors and incorrect assumptions.
This is why sentences are best... if you chose the sentences properly. If the sentence is ambiguous, you'll hit this problem. If the sentence makes the intended meaning clear, you don't have a problem. Drive. Now, there is no single correct translation for that word into most languages, but if you were asked to translate "I don't know how to drive" and "she's driving me crazy", you would intuitively know that one of them is about sitting behind the wheel of the car and the other isn't, so those would be good example sentences for the different meanings of the verb "drive" in English.
Now that's a point of disagreement even here on this site, so you shouldn't state categorically that it's "the best". There are two broad camps on this. The "passivists" say that production comes as a result of recognising the word and the "activists" say that you only recognise a word once you've learned to use it. Very chicken and egg, and very Gulliver's Travels. I'm in the "activist" camp myself. My big concern about starting with the target language is that if you have a totally unambiguous sentence, you can normally understand it without processing every word. So if I see "me vuelves loco" I only have to read "me *****es loco" and it says "you're <<somethinging>> me mad". The only thing that "somethinging" can be is "driving", so I don't ever need to process the "vuelv-" bit -- I don't ever need to actually learn this word this way. So yes, lots of people say L2(second language)->L1 (native language), lots of people say L1->L2, and others still say L2->L1 then swap them round to L1->L2. As I said, I'm "L1->L2" all the way. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| ic32987 Groupie United States Joined 6346 days ago 50 posts - 54 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 4 of 18 20 July 2009 at 11:50pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I meant the best method as indicated by my reference (AJATT).
In regards to L1 --> L2...I've always used that method in my studies. I've only just started the new AJATT type of deal. I've no real supporting evidence, beyond what is said on AJATT/Antimoon. I agree entirely about the difficulty in self grading yourself on cards. Edited due to sounding rude. Edited by ic32987 on 21 July 2009 at 12:27am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| zoleero Newbie Sweden Joined 5615 days ago 6 posts - 6 votes Speaks: Swedish | Message 5 of 18 21 July 2009 at 3:41am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
First of all I would like to thank you for your answers. I am sorry but my English is not the best since Swedish is my native language. It seems like my questions are rather hard to understand and that I have difficulties to express my self properly. I will give it a new try.
First of all I would not like to go in to a semantic discussion about what a flash card is and how many types of flash cards there are. There are as many types of flash cards as one can imagine types of information to write on them. It can be one word, one sentence, two sentences, a paragraph, a table, a formula, a picture. It can be what ever you feel to put on that card. For me they are the entire same concept, they are all flash cards! The whole idea of this thread, for me, was to discuss and try to understand how to best use flash cards in language learning. The most important question for me is to understand what to actually write on the flash cards AND what not to write. What should the information actually look like? It is not so much about witch direction to go (L1->L2 or L2->L1) either! The direction is personal I believe. What I meant to say in my first paragraph was that it seems to me that most people tend to favor flash cards whit a sentence on one side and the translation on the other side. The focus is on the context and what the meaning of that word is in that specific context.
Seems to me you are making a good point there. So you would just recommend do it as simple as possible that is an example sentence on one side and the corresponding translation on the other side? Is it bad to add a small list of synonyms underneath the translation that is synonyms for just that specific meaning of the word? When I am translating a word I often find many meanings of that word and to each meaning I find synonyms. I feel that if I use only the translated sentence I miss out on all nuances that are in the synonyms. But I guess that the idea is to use a translation that uses the most general synonym for that specific meaning, am I right?
Very good point, thanks for that tip!
What you are saying makes sense to me. But the problem for me is more to "chose the sentences properly". Often when I read I find words that I dont understand and they are in a sentence that alone is not a "proper" sentence for use on flash cards. Is there any "creative technique" for producing proper sentences for a meaning of a word? How should one think when constructing such sentence? How do I conceive this "totally unambiguous sentence"? I am, I think, a lower intermediate learner of English. So I have gone from the examples in textbooks to real literature. Right now I am reading "Carter Beats The Devil" by author Glen David Gold. Let me give some examples of passages of text that had words that I did not understand.
The word I want to learn is (bilboes). In this case there is a rather good sentence to use in flash cards: "it is humiliating to lie in the bilboes" The sentence it self is rather descriptive. I think it is OK to use. Does anyone have an opinion about my choice? Should I construct my own sentence whit an even more vivid description? If so please give me an example! The next example I think is harder to work with:
Again here are the words I try to add to my vocabulary bolded. I dont know about the first 2 words (pillory, enticing) and the sentence they are in, can the sentence be used on a flash card? What do you think? "The illustration of the pillory was less enticing to him." And finally the last word (makeshift): "Standing with his head and wrists pinned with a makeshift stocks was tiresome, so he never pretended to be pilloried." Should I use the whole sentence? Or should I make it shorter? Or should I conceive a new sentence on my own, and risking to make a faulty one? Any ideas are welcome. For some of you this may feel like a trivial questions, but for me they are important. I would be very glad of any constructive input about this matter. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6017 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 6 of 18 21 July 2009 at 11:14am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I don't see why you'll ever really need to know bilboes or pillories -- these are words that you'll probably never need!
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| Lizzern Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5915 days ago 791 posts - 1053 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 7 of 18 21 July 2009 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Assuming you're talking about printed flashcards, not an SRS... It's going to start getting colder soon... Winter will be here before we know it... Fireplaces are still common in Sweden, right? Be creative.
Honestly, personally I'd get more enjoyment from flashcards that way than by using them for what they're for. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| reasonableman Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5661 days ago 33 posts - 35 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Turkish | Message 8 of 18 21 July 2009 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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zoleero, I think you are asking some good questions.
As some of the vocab you seem to be learning is esoteric (I have never heard the words 'bilboes' or 'pillories') I think it would be a bad idea for you to construct your own sentences. Although I think perhaps Cainnter may have jumped the gun a little and you were only using those words as examples. The only thing I can suggest is googling the word and finding a sentence that way. With regards to direction (L1>L2 or vice-versa) I am still only using 'word' flashcards but will be changing to sentence flash cards and I'm planning to put them in the L1>L2 direction. Inspired by Feynmann (a famous physicist) who said 'Anything I cannot create, I cannot understand!'. He was referring to physics derivations but it's all just knowledge encoding... Also because I am learning Turkish, which is SOV I will be going for hyper-literal L1. Eg: Cat find-can't-we 1 person has voted this message useful |
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