15 messages over 2 pages: 1 2
Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 5010 days ago
3277 posts - 6779 votes 
Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian
| Message 9 of 15 31 January 2012 at 3:53pm | IP Logged |
A foreign accent is not always bad but there is a borderline between a foreign accent
adding "flavour", being interesting or even sexy and the accent which makes communication
much harder.
I believe the Czech pronunciation has some tricky points, for exemple te long/short
vowels Mark mentioned, perhaps Slovak is more learner-friendly for other Slavic speakers.
And it is beautiful. And there is a new Slovak learning website by creators of Lernu.
From the other side, what are common mistakes of West Slavic speakers when trying the
South or East Slavic languages? I would like to learn Russian one day, perhaps in not too
far feature, so whould should I try to avoid?
1 person has voted this message useful
| LaughingChimp
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 4700 days ago
346 posts - 594 votes
Speaks: Czech*
| Message 10 of 15 01 February 2012 at 1:19am | IP Logged |
What Cavesa says is right, I think that Czech may be even slightly tonal, some sentences sound just wrong without the correct intonation.
Kartof wrote:
That's interesting. I wouldn't expect intonation to be a greater issue in learning a language than grammar. What
sounds in Czech and other West Slavic languages are difficult to pronounce by other Slavic speakers? |
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Most people believe that correct pronunciation is mostly about pronouncing the sounds right, but most languages are very forgiving in this regard. But even slight mistakes in intonation or rythm make you sound foreign and difficult to understand.
Марк wrote:
Czech pronunciation is also very difficult because of the distinction of long and short
vowels. |
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I believe it's rather tense/lax distinction, except in Moravia.
Edited by LaughingChimp on 01 February 2012 at 1:23am
2 persons have voted this message useful
| Kartof
Bilingual Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5067 days ago
391 posts - 550 votes
Speaks: English*, Bulgarian*, Spanish
Studies: Danish
| Message 11 of 15 01 February 2012 at 1:59am | IP Logged |
What about the presence of cognates between the two language family subgroups? What are common phonological
changes present between the shared words in South and West Slavic languages?
1 person has voted this message useful
| Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7157 days ago
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20 sounds
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Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish
| Message 12 of 15 01 February 2012 at 3:12am | IP Logged |
Kartof wrote:
What about the presence of cognates between the two language family subgroups? What are common phonological
changes present between the shared words in South and West Slavic languages? |
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I can recall only two isoglosses that unite all of the Western Slavonic languages with just the Southern Slavonic ones. However there are more instances where a certain sound in Bulgarian corresponds regularly to something in at least one Western Slavonic one.
One of these isoglosses is that final cluster -dm in the word meaning "seven" as reconstructed in Late Common Slavonic simplified least in Western and Southern Slavonic reflexes.
sedm (Czech); siedem (Polish); sedem (Slovak); sedym (Sorbian, Lower); sydom (Sorbian, Upper)
sedam (BCMS/Serbo-Croatian); седем (Bulgarian); седум (Macedonian); sedem (Slovenian)
Cf. семь (Belorussian, Russian); ciм (Ukrainian) (Notice loss of -d-)
However there are certain things in Bulgarian that correspond regularly to traits in at least one other non-Southern Slavonic language. Rooting through what I posted here and here, here're some of these "certain things" that I'm talking about.
Chung wrote:
Words that begin with lo-/ro- in Polish or Eastern Slavonic can have cognates in BCMS [and the other Southern Slavonic languages] that begin in la-/ra- or ones in Czech or Slovak that begin either with la-/ra- or lo-/ro-.
E.g. "elbow"
loket (Czech); łokieć (Polish); łokś (Lower Sorbian); łochć (Upper Sorbian); лoкоть (Russian); лiкоть (Ukrainian - original "o" has shifted to "i" because of the Ukrainian tendency to narrow vowels in words ending with closed syllables)
lakeť (Slovak); lakat (BCMS); лакът (Bulgarian)
"growth"
růst (Czech - original "o" has shifted to "ů"); -rost: wzrost; roślina "plant" (Polish); rosćenje (Lower Sorbian); róst (Upper Sorbian); poст (Russian); piст (Ukrainian - original "o" has shifted to "i" because of the Ukrainian tendency to narrow vowels in words ending with closed syllables)
rast (Slovak); rast (BCMS); paстеж (Bulgarian)
e.g. As is the case with Eastern and Southern Slavonic languages, Slovak didn't go through the change like the other Western Slavonic languages where original *rj/*r' changed to ř as in Czech, rz as in Polish or ř and ś as in Sorbian.
"ahead"
před (Czech); przed (Polish); pśed (Lower Sorbian); před (Upper Sorbian)
pred (Slovak); naprijed (BCMS); напpед (Bulgarian); впеpед (Russian, Ukrainian)
"river"
řeka (Czech); rzeka (Polish)
rieka (Slovak); rěka (Sorbian); r(ij)eka (BCMS); рiка (Ukrainian - BTW Ukrainian is like Ikavian because ancestral ě became i); река (Bulgarian, Russian)
Over time Slovak (along with Macedonian and Slovenian) has turned -m into the only suffix for "I" in present tense (or future tense of perfective verbs). BCMS has done almost the same but two of its verbs don't follow this pattern: moći "to be able to" and ht(j)eti "to want". Czech uses -i, -m, or -u for the suffix of "I" in present tense.
čtu (Czech); čítam (Slovak); čitam (BCMS) "I read"
chci (Czech); chcem (Slovak); hoću (BCMS) "I want"
jdu (Czech); idem (Slovak); idem (BCMS) "I go" (on foot)
jedu (Czech); idem (Slovak); idem (BCMS) "I go" (by vehicle)
kupuji (Czech); kupujem (Slovak); kupujem (BCMS) "I buy"
mohu (Czech); môžem (Slovak); mogu (BCMS) "I am able to"
peru (Czech); periem (Slovak); perem (BCMS) "I wash"
vidím (Czech); vidím (Slovak); vidim (BCMS) "I see"
začnu (Czech); začnem (Slovak); počnem (BCMS) "I (shall) start"
In addition, the example with "I go" shows how BCMS and Slovak don't distinguish between going with and without a vehicle while Czech (and Polish, Russian, Ukrainian etc.) does. |
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Some things that I haven't checked for 100% applicability but often seem to hold true include:
Chung wrote:
[...]2ND RULE OF THUMB: If you see a word in WSL or SSL that has the combination of consonant + L (or consonant + R), its cognate in ESL will have consonant + vowel + L + vowel (or consonant + vowel + R + vowel). **This observation applies when the ancestral word had the combination of consonant + vowel + L (or consonant + vowel + R.
“head”
(WSL)
głowa (Polish, Lower Sorbian); hłowa (Upper Sobrian); hlava (Czech, Slovak)
(ESL)
голoва (Russian, Ukrainian); галaва (Belorussian)
(SSL)
glava (BCMS, Slovenian); глава (Bulgarian, Macedonian)
“king”
(WSL)
król (Polish); kral (Sorbian); král (Czech); kráľ (Slovak)
(ESL)
король (Russian, Ukrainian); кapоль (Belorussian);
(SSL)
kralj (BCMS, Slovenian); крал (Bulgarian, Macedonian)
3RD RULE OF THUMB: Czech, Slovak and SSL allow for L and/or R to act as syllabic vowels. The others do not.
“summit, top”
(WSL)
wierzch (Polish); vjeršk (Upper Sorbian); wjerch (Lower Sorbian); vrch (Czech, Slovak)
(ESL)
верх (Belorussian, Russian, Ukrainian);
(SSL)
vrh (BCMS, Slovenian); вpв (Macedonian); вpъх (Bulgarian)
“wolf”
(WSL)
wilk (Polish); wjelk (Sorbian); vlk (Czech, Slovak)
(ESL)
вовк (Ukrainian); воўк (Belorussian); волк (Russian)
(SSL)
volk (Slovenian); vuk (BCMS); волк (Macedonian); вълк (Bulgarian)
[...]
6TH RULE OF THUMB: Belorussian, Czech, Slovak, Upper Sorbian, and Ukrainian words containing H often have cognates in the other Slavonic languages which use ‘g’ instead. This rule of thumb is not highly applicable to some words (loanwords in particular).
“voice”
(WSL)
głos (Polish, Lower Sorbian); hłós (Upper Sorbian); hlas (Czech, Slovak)
(ESL)
голос (Ukranian - Ukrainian г is pronounced very close to “h”); галас (Belorussian - Belorussian г is pronounced very close to “h”); голос (Russian)
(SSL)
glas (BCMS, Slovenian); глас (Bulgarian, Macedonian)
“I speak”
(WSL)
gwarzę “I chat” (Polish); howriju "I roar" (Upper Sorbian); hovořím “I converse” (Czech); hovorím (Slovak)
(ESL)
говорю (Ukrainian - Ukrainian г is pronounced very close to “h”); гавару "I say" (Belorussian - Belorussian г is pronounced very close to “h”); говорю (Russian);
(SSL)
govorim (BCMS, Slovenian); говорам (Macedonian); говоря (Bulgarian)
[...]
8TH RULE OF THUMB: If you see a word in WSL (except Upper Sorbian in some instances) that has the medial cluster -DL- or -DŁ-, then the cognate in ESL or SSL usually has changed the cluster to either a vowel or L. This rule of thumb applies when the word from the ancestral language also had *-DL- (a word such as “sedlo” (saddle) from BCMS would not be a "violation" since its ancestral form had *-DЬL- instead, and in all modern Slavonic languages this ancestral cluster is expressed as -dl-)
“long”
(WSL)
długi (Polish) dołhi (Upper Sorbian); dłujki (Lower Sorbian); dlouhý (Czech); dlhý (Slovak)
(ESL)
довгий (Ukrainian); доўгі (Belorussian); долгий (Russian)
(SSL)
dolg (Slovenian); dug (BCMS); долго (Macedonian); дълъг (Bulgarian)
“plough”
(WSL)
radło (Polish, Upper Sorbian); radlica "plowshare" (Lower Sorbian); rádlo (Czech, Slovak)
(ESL)
рало (Belorussian, Russian, Ukrainian)
(SSL)
ralo (BCMS, Slovenian); рало (Bulgarian, Macedonian) |
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6 persons have voted this message useful
| Kartof
Bilingual Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5067 days ago
391 posts - 550 votes
Speaks: English*, Bulgarian*, Spanish
Studies: Danish
| Message 13 of 15 01 February 2012 at 10:18pm | IP Logged |
Thank you Chung, these rules of thumb are very helpful.
1 person has voted this message useful
| tricoteuse
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Norway
littlang.blogspot.co
Joined 6679 days ago
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Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French
Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian
| Message 14 of 15 01 February 2012 at 10:43pm | IP Logged |
I'm also curious about going East-South. After polishing my Russian and getting my Ukrainian and Old Church Slavonic to a good level, I want to try Bulgarian (even though Polish is also tempting). If anyone has gone from Ru/Ukr to Bulgarian and has some comments, I would be very interested :) Kartof, what are common pronunciation mistakes that Russians make when speaking Bulgarian?
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| Kartof
Bilingual Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5067 days ago
391 posts - 550 votes
Speaks: English*, Bulgarian*, Spanish
Studies: Danish
| Message 15 of 15 02 February 2012 at 1:18am | IP Logged |
I do not know any Russians who speak Bulgarian personally, but I'm sure that one of the most common mistakes
would be over-palatalization such as mispronunciation of the letter 'e' as yе. Another mistake may also be too
much reduction of unstressed vowels which isn't as strong in Bulgarian as in Russian, but still present. The main
vowel reductions in Bulgarian are: a->ъ, о->у, and (in the east) е->и. Also, 'щ' is pronounced as 'sht' in Bulgarian,
and not as a palatalized 'ш' as in Russian. I'm sure someone else can enlighten you on less apparent differences in
pronunciation but these are the ones that would be most obvious.
ё, ы, and э are letters that aren't used in Bulgarian so all associated sounds either don't exist in Bulgarian or are
represented by other letters.
I wish you luck on learning Bulgarian tricoteuse and feel free to PM if you need any help.
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