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Chinese: Mandarin, Wu, Yue, Min, Jin | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| sneakbobcat Diglot Newbie United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4686 days ago 4 posts - 10 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 1 of 7 06 February 2012 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I'm begining to learn Mandarin and noticed that in China there are a number of different languages that fall under the category "Chinese."
Now as someone who would like to learn Mandarin, I was wondering what the differences are between the different languages. The first thing I'd like to know is which are intelligible to which others: using the example of Spanish - Italian or Swedish - Norweigan where it is possible at times for the two people who speak different languages to communicate. Im also referring to the written language as well as the spoken language also discerning tones. Also, a second question: What is the difference between Mandarin, Putonghua and Guoyu? -My understanding is they are the same, but I'd assume they are used in different circumstances. Thanks :) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| nway Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/Vic Joined 5416 days ago 574 posts - 1707 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean | Message 2 of 7 06 February 2012 at 10:58pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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"Mandarin" is the name for the language in English, adapted from the Portuguese word "mandarim", which originally referred to an official of the Chinese empire. "Putonghua" means "common speech" and is the CCP-designated name for it in the Mainland, where it serves as a lingua franca. "Guoyu" just means "national language" and is the name for it in Taiwan.
These various languages generally aren't as mutually intelligible as Swedish and Norwegian, and typically not even Spanish and Italian either. Perhaps more analogous would be Spanish and Romanian or Swedish and Dutch. Obviously there's a common ancestral lineage of shared vocabulary, however, which is comparable to the Romance languages or the Germanic languages. Each of these languages have their own dialects which are mostly mutually intelligible, but Wu is unique in particular for have a large amount of non-mutually-intelligible dialects, even within close geographic proximity to each other. Edited by nway on 07 February 2012 at 12:22am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 3 of 7 07 February 2012 at 7:36am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
For this reason, some linguists prefer to avoid the term as it's imprecise. For talking about the language family, you can use the term "sinitic".
Very little mutual intelligibility exists. These languages often have very large differences in pronunciation. If written down, they'll be more similar (if written using Chinese characters), but that's hardly relevant as most of them are simply never written down. For example, 白話 ("vernacular language") in Mandarin is pronounced "bai hua", in Cantonese "baak waa" and in Taiwanese "Pe oe". The mutual intelligibility question is largely moot for most of these languages, however, as everyone and their mom speak Mandarin in Mainland China, at least in the city. You'll have to go out into the poor country villages to find a speaker of Wu who doesn't speak Mandarin. I'm guessing most native Wu speakers in for example Shanghai are more comfortable speaking in Mandarin, anyway.
As I said, most of these languages aren't written down (I think it's illegal to write them in China). Written Cantonese exists in Hong Kong, but only for things like comic books, gossip magazines and advertisement, never for "serious" topics. Taiwanese/Hokkien/Hoklo/Minnanese/Fukkien (that's the same language with different names) has some literature in romanization in Taiwan, but most speakers can't read it. There are a few books about a century old which has some Wu in the dialogues, but nobody reads those anymore. As far as I know, all the other languages have no written language at all, except for Mandarin, of course. As for the tones, they vary a lot. The tone systems of Cantonese, Mandarin and Taiwanese are radically different. * Mandarin tones only separate contour (rising, falling, level, dipping) * Cantonese tones separate pitch (high level, high rising, middle level, low falling, low rising, low level) * Taiwanese tones I'm not too familiar with, but I know that the have tone sandhi on every syllable but the last in a statement. So all tones change depending on what tone follows. The same character will have different tones in different sentences. * I believe Wu as spoken in Shanghai has merged a lot of its tones. Someone said that it pretty much only has two tones left. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Asiafeverr Diglot Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 6343 days ago 346 posts - 431 votes 1 sounds Speaks: French*, English Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghainese, German | Message 4 of 7 07 February 2012 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I recommend you read the
Wikipedia article if you want detailed answers on different dialects. In general, languages from the same group (Wu, Yue, Hui, Xiang, etc.) are mutually intelligible. There are of course exceptions, for example cities that were isolated from their neighbors for a long time. Dialects from the same geographic area also tend to be closer; Cantonese (from the south) and Mandarin (from the north) are very different while Mandarin and Sichuanese are very similar. China remained segregated into smaller kingdoms for a large portion of its history so while most dialects share common roots they can vary significantly depending on their region's history.
It depends how you define tones. If you define them like you define Cantonese tones then there are a lot more than 2 since some words go 21 while some go 54 and many 'toneless' words are pronounced with either a low, middle or high tone. While I am not a linguist, I would rather call these different tones as a language learner. Edited by Asiafeverr on 07 February 2012 at 6:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 5 of 7 08 February 2012 at 7:07am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Well, Standard Mandarin and Sichuanese Mandarin are of course very similar (though I hear intelligibility can still be a problem because the phonological differences are quite significant), because the Old Sichuanese went extinct during the Ming dynasty. I think modern Sichuanese is usually classified as a dialect of Mandarin. The same way, Taishanese is classified as a dialect of Yue, but can often be hard to understand for Cantonese speakers from Canton or Hong Kong.
Cool, thanks. Edited by Ari on 08 February 2012 at 7:07am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| moonjun Bilingual Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4805 days ago 8 posts - 17 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin* Studies: Korean | Message 6 of 7 10 February 2012 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I did not realize how much Cantonese is actually similar with Mandarin before getting
Taiwanese contacts, they actually share I would say 70% of "everyday phrases" and 90% formal or professional words. Other languages I'm not so familiar with, but Taiwanese is famous for it's unique etymology in colloquial language, and therefore completely different with Mandarin even written. All dialects have not been able to develop literature or anything of the sort since 1949, so any modern or professional words would share the same characters in all dialects with different pronunciations of the characters. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 7 of 7 10 February 2012 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Are you talking about Cantonese or Taiwanese here? I though there were very few Cantonese speakers in Taiwan. Anyway, modern Cantonese has been deeply influenced by Mandarin, since written Mandarin, read with Cantonese pronunciation, has been the written language in Hong Kong and Guangdong for the last century. Lots of Cantonese words and expressions common fifty years ago are not used by modern speakers. Cantonese words are replaced with Mandarin ones continuously. Lots of old Cantonese words are now obsolete. I remember buying a book comparing common expressions written in Cantonese and Mandarin and showing it to my girlfriend (a native Cantonese speaker from Hong Kong). Dozens of words and expressions in the book were completely unfamiliar to her. As to Taiwanese, I quote Victor Mair:
Yeah, the Min branch is considered to be the earliest one to branch off from the other Sinitic languages, so it's probably the most different one.
Don't be so sure. Cantonese is full of English loan words for a lot of modern concepts, and Taiwanese is full of Japanese ones, due to long exposure. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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