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Help me Write Introduction to Lang. Book | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6552 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 17 of 24 30 July 2011 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I agree with most of what you said. I think there's a lot of truth in what was written. But I also think there are a lot
of misleading implications. I have merely stated some of the implications I find objectionable, as DavidW requested. If you don't think he's implying those things, or think it's a "straw man", so be it. I think that L-R learners will find it helpful, and that's a good thing. If Siomotteikiru wants to maximize the the number of readers (I would say book sales, but knowing him I doubt if it's for profit), he should leave the intro pretty much like it is. I just hope young learners will not be given false hope by the introduction, even if it truly is a misinterpretation of what he means. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6441 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 18 of 24 31 July 2011 at 2:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Largely agreed.
I don't think all of them were implied, and I think some of the dichotomies were straw men - it's a rare text that can't be made incredibly objectionable by a few well-placed dichotomies that the author didn't intend. That said, some are clearly there, and there are clearly-written bits which I'd disagree with, even leaving aside implications, though I agree with most of the gist of it. What I think I could improve on in precision would probably come at far too high a price to clarity and concision.
Ilya Frank isn't David isn't Siomotteikiru. If Siomotteikiru is involved in this at all, other than having posted something about layout ages ago and having written about L-R, it's news to me, but either way, s/he's definitely not the one that wrote that intro. Ilya Frank and Siomotteikiru have somewhat similar ideas (primarily, that reading a lot with L1 aids to comprehension at first is extremely useful), but plenty of differences as well (from the importance of audio through how to format texts - texts formatted for L-R are somewhat awkward for Ilya Frank's method, and vice versa). Edit: by the way, DavidW, thank you for all your hard work in getting Arabic L-R materials published. I appreciate it. Edited by Volte on 31 July 2011 at 2:13am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| DavidW Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6528 days ago 318 posts - 458 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Italian, Persian, Malay Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Portuguese, German, Urdu | Message 19 of 24 31 July 2011 at 4:52am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I printed off the first run of CDs today, with the French/English as MP3 audio. They
look great, and smell vaguely of coconut. The book proof I'll submit on Monday morning, and the first lot of books will hopefully be at the distributor in about ten days. I don't think anyone will be disappointed with the results. I've been in contact with a forum member aru-aru, who's done some good research into suitable titles for Hindi, but no one else really. I'd like to work together with Ilya Frank to share translations/recordings and help each other with permissions. The (probably final) book cover's here: www.omilia.org/hosted_files/cover_final.jpg No wild claims. Anything that goes in the intro the buyer probably won't see to they get home, once they've bought the book. It's not my intention to make false promises to sell more books. Some thoughts on Ilya's text: Some of the comments are most likely a reaction to the traditional education system for languages in place in Russia. Some of the terms he used in Russian relating to specific learning activities are hard to translate. The translation of 'drills' probably wasn't quite accurate. I love drills, so I'll definitely be taking that out, ;-). Languages need a lot of time and dedication with any method, and I don't want to give the impression that this is not case. But it need not be painful. When I sit down to do language study, I'm aware of my brain doing stuff, and I get tired after a while, but I mostly quite enjoy it. People selling language methods are often make dishonest claims, but to be fair to them, they are obliged to do so by their similarly dishonest competitors, and so on.. When he says this: >Our memory is closely related to how we feel at any particular moment, it depends on >our inner state, and not, for example, on how many times we repeat a particular phrase >or how many exercises/drills we do. In addition to what Volte said, I have another idea about what he might be getting at. I have studied German without ever interacting with anyone else, with assimil, drill courses, audiobooks etc. This was in part a kind of deliberate experiment, and in part because I didn't have the time/chance to seek out people to talk with. I can understand quite a lot on TV, and could translate simple phrases from English to German correctly without effort or thought. But in some deep emotional sense, the words mean nothing to me, they are apparently not 'wired in' to the part of my brain that deals with emotions and real life. I wouldn't be able to strike up a friendship with someone speaking only German, or probably even hold a conversation on anything but factual matters. This is because I have learnt words in isolation of their real world significance in some way, and my linguistic ability in the most abstract sense (ability to do drills and size of my vocabulary) has likely suffered as a result. I hope that makes some sense, I'm not sure I understand it myself. Edited by DavidW on 31 July 2011 at 5:08am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| DavidW Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6528 days ago 318 posts - 458 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Italian, Persian, Malay Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Portuguese, German, Urdu | Message 20 of 24 31 July 2011 at 5:05am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Here's the intro as it now:
Introduction and Instructions for Use The following text was originally written by Ilya Frank (www.franklang.ru), and has been abridged and adapted slightly: As a beginner, you should start by reading the text in the foreign language, using the translation as a support for comprehension. Later this support will no longer be necessary. If you then find you have forgotten the meaning of a particular word, so long as you understand the general meaning of the sentence, you don’t have to search for its translation; you’ll see the word many times again. At first you’ll feel inundated by unknown words and structures. This is normal, and not a cause for concern. As you continue, what at first appears alien and incomprehensible will become familiar and transparent. When you feel able, you should read the foreign language first and try to understand, then glance at the translation just to check your comprehension. To learn a new word, rather than endlessly repeating it or cramming, it’s much better to meet it in various different linguistic contexts. The bulk of the necessary vocabulary, when reading according to my method, is absorbed as words are repeated in the text. So, having read the text, you shouldn’t try to memorise individual words. The more you read, the faster you’ll make progress. As strange as it may seem, the less you analyse, and the more relaxed you are, the better. The volume of material does the job, and quantity turns into quality. All that is required of the student is that he reads, paying attention not to the language itself, but rather to the story. Language, by its very nature, is a means, and not an end; it is best internalised not when it is explicitly studied, but rather when it is used naturally, by using it either in a living environment, or whilst immersed in an enthralling read. It’s then internalised without any particular mental effort. It’s less about logic or memorising rules than it is about acquiring a skill, or a set of habits. It’s more like learning to play a sport, that must be engaged in regularly in order to see results. The skills that you acquire in this manner will not easily be lost, even after years of disuse. What about grammar? To understand texts adapted in this way, a detailed knowledge of grammar is not necessary. Once you become acquainted with certain structures of the language, you will come to form your own intuitive understanding of the same principles. This is the same way in which people are able to learn to speak a language correctly by living in the language’s linguistic environment, having never been formally instructed in the language’s grammar. That’s not to say grammar should be avoided, but rather that to ‘get stuck in’ with a language, the most basic notions will suffice. It’s more useful and interesting to study grammar in more detail at a later stage. This book helps those studying a foreign language to overcome an important barrier: to immediately ‘enter’ the language and get used to its logic, thus saving much time and effort. A few notes from the publisher: In my own experience in working with bilingual texts, the use of audio is central to internalising the structures of the language. You should listen to the recordings while following along in the book, and sometimes listen to them by themselves. Don’t be alarmed if you seem to reach a plateau in your learning. Linguistic knowledge, from the time we are first presented with new material, seems to need a period of incubation before it is made available for our use, and progress often comes in bursts. Sometimes you will notice a difference after a good nights sleep. It’s important to study regularly, by making a habit of your studies. Find a quiet spot without distractions. A pleasant and relaxing environment is essential to allow yourself to focus and put aside your other concerns for a time. The learner must take responsibility for his own learning in order to be successful, but this is not specific to learning a language. By using the right materials and techniques combined with consistency, remarkable things can be achieved through self-study. I highly recommend you to visit www.omilialanguages.com for more advice, lists of recommended materials, and useful links. It is hoped that this book will be the first in a series of similar materials, covering a wide range of languages. Good luck with your studies. ---And in French--- Introduction et instructions Ilya Frank (www.franklang.ru) est l’auteur du texte suivant, que nous avons abrégé et légèrement modifié: Si vous êtes débutant, nous vous recommandons de commencer par lire le texte dans la langue étrangère, en utilisant la traduction comme support à la compréhension. Par la suite ce support ne sera plus nécessaire. Si vous réalisez que vous avez oublié la signification d’un mot particulier, vous n’avez pas besoin d’en chercher la traduction tant que vous comprenez le sens général de la phrase ; vous aurez l’occasion de retrouver ce mot de nombreuses fois par la suite. Au début, vous aurez l’impression d’être submergé de mots et de structures inconnues. C’est normal, et ne doit pas vous inquiéter. Tandis que vous progresserez, ce qui apparaissait d’abord comme inconnu et incompréhensible deviendra familier et limpide. Lorsque vous vous en sentirez capable, vous pourrez lire la langue étrangère d’abord en essayant de comprendre, puis jeter un œil à la traduction juste pour vérifier votre compréhension. Afin d’apprendre un mot inconnu, il est préférable de le rencontrer dans des contextes linguistiques variés, plutôt que de le répéter à l’infini ou de bachoter. L’essentiel du vocabulaire nécessaire, si vous lisez en suivant ma méthode, sera absorbé par répétition des mots dans le texte. Ainsi, après avoir lu le texte, vous ne devez pas essayer de mémoriser les mots individuellement. Plus vous lirez, plus vous progresserez vite. Aussi bizarre que cela puisse paraître, moins vous passerez de temps à analyser, plus vous serez détendu, et meilleurs seront les résultats. Le volume de matériel fera le travail, et la quantité deviendra qualité. Tout ce qui est requis de la part de l’étudiant est l’écoute, en portant une attention particulière, non au langage lui-même, mais à l’histoire. Le langage, par sa nature même, est un moyen, et non une fin. On l’apprend, non pas en l’étudiant en tant que telle, mais en l’utilisant, soit dans la vie courante, soit par immersion dans une lecture captivante. Elle est alors internalisée sans effort mental particulier. Il s’agit moins de règles de logique ou de mémorisation que d’acquérir une compétence ou un ensemble d’habitudes. C’est un peu comme apprendre un sport, qu’il faut pratiquer régulièrement avant de voir des résultats. Les compétences acquises de cette manière ne seront pas faciles à perdre, même après des années sans les utiliser. Et la grammaire alors ? Afin de comprendre les textes adaptés à cette méthode, une connaissance détaillée de la grammaire n’est pas nécessaire. Une fois que vous serez familiarisé à certaines structures de la langue, vous formerez votre compréhension intuitive de ces principes. C’est de cette manière que les personnes vivant dans l’environnement linguistique d’une langue donnée sont capables de l’apprendre correctement, sans avoir jamais appris formellement la grammaire de cette langue. Ceci ne veut pas dire qu’il faille éviter la grammaire, mais plutôt que, pour appréhender une langue, les notions les plus basiques suffisent. Il est plus utile et intéressant d’étudier la grammaire de manière plus détaillée à un niveau ultérieur. Ce livre aidera ceux qui apprennent une langue étrangère à franchir une barrière importante, en leur permettant d’ « entrer » immédiatement dans la langue et de s’habituer à sa logique, économisant ainsi du temps et des efforts. Quelques notes de l’éditeur : Ayant travaillé avec de nombreux textes bilingues, je peux témoigner que l’expérience auditive est primordiale pour intégrer les structures d’une langue. Je vous conseille donc d’écouter les enregistrements tout en suivant le texte, et parfois d’écouter les enregistrements individuellement. Ne paniquez pas si vous avez l’impression d’atteindre un seuil dans votre apprentissage. La connaissance linguistique, à partir du moment où nous sommes confrontés à un matériel nouveau, paraît nécessiter une période d’incubation avant de devenir une compétence utilisable, et les progrès se font souvent par à-coups. Vous remarquerez parfois même une différence marquée après une bonne nuit de sommeil. Il est important d’étudier régulièrement, en faisant de vos études une habitude. Trouvez un endroit calme, sans distractions. Un environnement plaisant et agréable est essentiel pour accaparer votre esprit et mettre de côté vos autres soucis pour un moment. L’élève doit prendre la responsabilité de son propre apprentissage afin de réussir, mais ceci n’est bien sûr pas spécifique à l’apprentissage d’une langue. L’utilisation de matériel et de techniques d’apprentissage appropriés, associé à une méthode cohérente, permet de réaliser de grandes choses en autodidacte. Je vous recommande vivement de consulter www.omilialanguages.com pour plus de conseils, des listes de matériel recommandé et des liens utiles. Nous espérons que ce livre sera le premier d’une série de livres similaires, couvrant une large gamme de langues. Bonne chance dans votre apprentissage. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6552 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 21 of 24 31 July 2011 at 5:38am | IP Logged | ||||||||
That's quite a bit better.
I'm from the US, and I don't know the exact nuance of this expression. Get familiar with? Be able to survive in? Master? You might want to use something more international. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| DavidW Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6528 days ago 318 posts - 458 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Italian, Persian, Malay Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Portuguese, German, Urdu | Message 22 of 24 31 July 2011 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thanks, I wasn't aware of that, I'll think about an alternative. I think I'll take out
this line too, or change it: 'It’s then internalised without any particular mental effort.' 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| DavidW Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6528 days ago 318 posts - 458 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Italian, Persian, Malay Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Portuguese, German, Urdu | Message 23 of 24 01 August 2011 at 2:16am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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'It’s then internalised without any particular mental effort.'
In fact my translation wasn't very good: Язык по своей природе — средство, а не цель, поэтому он лучше всего усваивается не тогда, когда его специально учат, а когда им естественно пользуются — либо в живом общении, либо погрузившись в занимательное чтение. *Тогда он осваивается сам собой, подспудно.* I'm not quite sure, but it's more like 'It then internalises/assimilates itself in a /hidden/stealthy/unseen way.' But I think I'll just leave it out. Also I'll take out 'naturally' here: Language, by its very nature, is a means, and not an end; it is best internalised not when it is explicitly studied, but rather when it is used _, _ either in a living environment, or whilst immersed in an enthralling read. 'get stuck in'... I'll change this bit to: but rather that to engage with a language, and start using it, the most basic notions will suffice. From the L/R threads there's three more ideas that haven't been mentioned here. I might mention them in the 'notes from the publisher' part. I'll link to the L/R page in my first post on the website. -Read the translation in advance -repeat after the recording -translate sections of the text from your own language into the language you’re learning Thanks for the feedback, it's useful. Edited by DavidW on 01 August 2011 at 2:22am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| LatinoBoy84 Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5577 days ago 443 posts - 603 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish*, French Studies: Russian, Portuguese, Latvian | Message 24 of 24 15 November 2011 at 1:28am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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http://www.omilialanguages.com/index.html
Awesome work just bought a Mandarin Text. Please create more modules...brilliant. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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