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Learning a language in the target language

 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes Post Reply
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Jinx
Triglot
Senior Member
Germany
reverbnation.co
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 Message 9 of 53
31 October 2011 at 11:14pm | IP Logged 
Babies aren't learning to speak a foreign language. Babies are learning to communicate for the first time in their lives.

I wish people who are obsessed with "learning like a child" would realize the huge difference between these two things.

Edited by Jinx on 31 October 2011 at 11:15pm
9 persons have voted this message useful



cathrynm
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junglevision.co
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 Message 10 of 53
31 October 2011 at 11:33pm | IP Logged 
If it's any consolation, I think there's potential for a bad Adam Sandler movie with this 'learn like a baby' concept.
4 persons have voted this message useful



Neil_UK
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 Message 11 of 53
31 October 2011 at 11:37pm | IP Logged 
Thanks for these replies. I didn't realise there was a name for this particular method
of learning ('The Natural Method' or the 'Direct Method'). I certainly read up on these
when I get a bit more time.

The point is, a baby learns a language automatically without even having to try. When I
was very little, I learnt English without trying; it just 'automatically' appeared in
my brain. I didn't need to use a Michel Thomas course to learn it. I didn't need to sit
down and memorise vocab. I happened mysteriously and by itself.

Is it that there is something special about the human brain in the first couple of
years of our lives that enables us to 'automatically' learn a language? If we can do
that as babies, why can't we do it as adults? Why do we lose that ability to learn a
language on autopilot once we're no longer babies? It seems like it's a 'magic ability'
we have in our formative years that somehow 'switches off' forever after that, like a
part of our brain just switches off. But what if there was a way to reactive that as an
adult?

I know Cainntear gave a pretty good explanation of how the brain learns languages, but
I still would like to learn more about why we can't acquire languages as effortlessly
when we get past our first few years.

Edited by Neil_UK on 31 October 2011 at 11:51pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Neil_UK
Tetraglot
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United Kingdom
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Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto, Welsh
Studies: Polish, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Mandarin, Japanese, Scottish Gaelic, French

 
 Message 12 of 53
31 October 2011 at 11:48pm | IP Logged 
Ari wrote:

And I'd be ware of a company promoting "sleep learning" (whether it's a metaphor or
actual sleep learning; didn't
check the website)


Their courses are in 2 parts - 1) normal audio, with baroque music in the background
(which is known to aid learning, due to the tempo of the music, since music played at
60 beats per minute puts the brain the optimum, most relaxed state for learning), and
2) a patented 'silent technology' that broadcasts recorded information directly to your
subconscious without the need to hear what is being said.

The idea is that you listen consciously to the normal audio track, while relaxing, but
you put the 'silent technology' track on as you sleep. Apparently your subconscious
mind absorbs language while you sleep.

Studies have proven that 'sleep learning' does work, though I need to read more about
it.

In fact, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so I will have to try the method
for myself and see if it works.

Edited by Neil_UK on 31 October 2011 at 11:57pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
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 Message 13 of 53
31 October 2011 at 11:52pm | IP Logged 
Neil_UK wrote:
The point is, a baby learns a language automatically without even having to try. When I
was very little, I learnt English without trying; it just 'automatically' appeared in
my
brain. I didn't need to use a Michel Thomas course to learn it. I didn't need to sit
down
and memorise vocab. I happened mysteriously and by itself.

Is it that there is something special about the human brain in the first couple of
years
of our lives that enables us to 'automatically'? If we can do that as babies, why can't
we do it as adults? Why do we lose that ability to learn a language on autopilot once
we're no longer babies? It seems like it's a 'magic ability' we have in our formative
years that somehow 'switches off' forever after that. I know Cainntear gave a pretty
good explanation of how the brain learns languages, but I still would like to learn
more about why we can't acquire languages as effortlessly when we get past our first
few years.




This lecture notes should begin to clarify why children and adults learn language differently and also debunk publishers' claims that their products work by letting adults learn a language as children do.

The summary of these lecture notes (in particular the second fact) contains the key point.

http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test4materials/language_and_the_brain.htm wrote:
SUMMARY

    Let's sum up three important facts about language and brain.

    First, humans are born with the innate capacity to acquire the extremely complex, creative system of communication that we call language. We are born with a language instinct, which Chomsky calls the LAD (language acquisition device). This language aptitude is completely different from inborn reflex responses to stimuli as laughter, sneezing, or crying. The language instinct seems to be a uniquely human genetic endowment: nearly all children exposed to language naturally acquire language almost as if by magic. Only in rare cases are children born without this magical ability to absorb abstract syntactic patterns from their environment. These children are said to suffer from Specific Language Impairment, or SLI. It is thought that SLI is caused by a mutant gene which disrupts the LAD.

    The LAD itself, of course, is probably the result of the complex interaction of many genes--not just one--and the malfunction of some single key gene simply short-circuits the system. For example, a faulty carburetor wire may prevent an engine from running, but the engine is more than a single carburetor wire. Many thousands of genes contribute to the makeup of the human brain--more than to any other single aspect of the human body. To isolate the specific set of genes that act as the blueprint for the language organ is something no one has even begun to do.

    Second, the natural ability for acquiring language normally diminished rapidly somewhere around the age of puberty. There is a critical age for acquiring fluent native language. This phenomenon seems to be connected with the lateralization of language in the left hemisphere of most individuals--the hemisphere associated with monolinear cognition (such as abstract reasoning and step-by step physical tasks) and not the right hemisphere, which is associated with 3D spatial acuity, artistic and musical ability. Unlike adults, children seem to be able to employ both hemispheres to acquire language. In other words, one might say that children acquire language three-dimensionally while adults must learn it two dimensionally.

    Third and finally, in most adults the language organ is the perisylvian area of the left hemispheric cortex. Yesterday we discussed the extensive catalog of evidence that shows language is usually housed in this specific area of the brain. Only the human species uses this area for communication. The signals of animal systems of communication seem to be controlled by the subcortex, the area which in humans controls similar inborn response signals such as laughter, crying, fear, desire, etc.
(Ed. Underlining and bolding are per the article - i.e. NOT added by me.)
4 persons have voted this message useful



jazzboy.bebop
Senior Member
Norway
norwegianthroughnove
Joined 5420 days ago
439 posts - 800 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Norwegian

 
 Message 14 of 53
01 November 2011 at 1:43am | IP Logged 
Neil_UK wrote:
Thanks for these replies. I didn't realise there was a name for this particular method
of learning ('The Natural Method' or the 'Direct Method'). I certainly read up on these
when I get a bit more time.

The point is, a baby learns a language automatically without even having to try. When I
was very little, I learnt English without trying; it just 'automatically' appeared in
my brain. I didn't need to use a Michel Thomas course to learn it. I didn't need to sit
down and memorise vocab. I happened mysteriously and by itself.

Is it that there is something special about the human brain in the first couple of
years of our lives that enables us to 'automatically' learn a language? If we can do
that as babies, why can't we do it as adults? Why do we lose that ability to learn a
language on autopilot once we're no longer babies? It seems like it's a 'magic ability'
we have in our formative years that somehow 'switches off' forever after that, like a
part of our brain just switches off. But what if there was a way to reactive that as an
adult?

I know Cainntear gave a pretty good explanation of how the brain learns languages, but
I still would like to learn more about why we can't acquire languages as effortlessly
when we get past our first few years.


The main problem I think is a person's expected level. As a kid, you only need to know the language to the level expected of you as a kid. As an adult you are expected to be able to communicate as one. A kid of four may be deemed fluent, but only fluent as far as a four year old is expected to be.

An adult can actually learn a heck of a lot more of a language far more quickly than a little kid can but as an adult there is so much that needs to be learned; most of the concepts you know in your own language need to be relearned all over again and it takes many years of growing up to acquire these so of course it becomes a slog for adults to properly learn a language.

I'm not sure kids learn as effortlessly as you might think. They get surrounded in language all the time but it takes about 2 years or so before they can start stringing simple sentences together. Through teaching, an adult who spends their time right can do that much more quickly.

As adults, even if we are immersed in a new language from the start we can't help but think in a language we know to try and figure out this new language and if that's the case why not use translations and explanations? Immersion may well be good to use once you've got to the level where you know enough of the language to explain more difficult concepts about the language in the language itself and it becomes a self-sustaining process, but right from the start you won't be able to help but refer to a language you know so why not make use of it?
6 persons have voted this message useful



Ari
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Norway
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Studies: Czech, Latin, German

 
 Message 15 of 53
01 November 2011 at 7:10am | IP Logged 
Neil_UK wrote:
Studies have proven that 'sleep learning' does work,

No. No, they have not.
5 persons have voted this message useful



Ari
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 6584 days ago
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Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese
Studies: Czech, Latin, German

 
 Message 16 of 53
01 November 2011 at 7:13am | IP Logged 
jazzboy.bebop wrote:
I'm not sure kids learn as effortlessly as you might think. They get surrounded in language all the time but it takes about 2 years or so before they can start stringing simple sentences together. Through teaching, an adult who spends their time right can do that much more quickly.

Not at all. Place a kid (who already knows a language) in a foreign environment and they'll be chatting away in no time. It takes them years to learn their first language, but as second language learners, they're far quicker than adults. This ability seems to disappear in the early teens.


1 person has voted this message useful



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