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Learning a language in the target language | ||
Tags: Natural method | Immersion | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5228 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 25 of 53 01 November 2011 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Brain neurophysiology still has very important gaps. We've all seen 'studies' that seem to point in either direction, which is why I think this is still undecided. Actually, I meant languages acquired 'without any help from other languages nor study techniques' (typical among immigrants, extremely varying degrees of success, but 'high' isn't rare at all) vs 'actively studied'. Anyway, what you mention raises some interesting points to debate: In principle, it makes some sense that you need a bit more time to recognize and understand a 'foreign' word. But, wouldn't that introduce a cumulative 'lag', rendering long speeches incomprehensible beyond a certain point? Just how longer is that longer time, and why? I have experienced this as an interpreter, but the lagging factor was looking for appropriate translations, not understanding. The translation lag is somewhat reduced through training, but unfortunately I played interpreters just for two weeks. A similar phenomenon I experience almost daily, however, is the need to stop and think so I can be sure I understand when something is said in an unexpected language. Other than that, I certainly have no problems understanding or even giving speeches/ conferences in a foreign language. More importantly, new native vocabulary is not addressed here. Do new words take longer to be recognized and understood? My guess is they will do. What if some of these are loan words coming from another language? I don't think it makes a difference. A former student of mine's girlfriend (whose English is lower intermediate) nailed it: she needed to stop and translate lots of words, then think sentences over. She realized this didn't happen when all the words were simple things like 'dog' or 'house' so she concluded what many (most?) people don't realize -- not all words are equally dealt with. The key here? I think it is mere automation by repetition *or any other means*, which also happens to address the 'translating' problem without descending to uncertain physiological hypothesis. Edited by mrwarper on 01 November 2011 at 5:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| HMS Senior Member England Joined 5109 days ago 143 posts - 256 votes Speaks: English* | Message 26 of 53 01 November 2011 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I have found these 'natural method' German links I read about on here to be very helpful.
I find it's like learning without actively trying. A bit like MT but without the grammar constructs. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22160/22160-h/22160-h.htm http://www.gutenberg.org/files/35794/35794-h/35794-h.htm I'm finding this method works for me and gives me most satisfaction. I have no way of measuring how much I have learned from them but the best way I can describe it is: I feel better about it. I suppose it's very subjective though according to one's ability. I'm at a very low false beginner level I would say. I think it's a method that should be re-discovered and courses built around that methodology. Maybe languages courses should veer away from the "German/Spanish in 3 months" type aim and instead a niche be created for language learning according to the type of learner and their limitations. Maybe "German for people who procrastinate" or "Spanish for people who work 80 hours a week". A lot of my reading is bedside reading and most of the books I have are wholly unsuitable for that setting. I cannot get my head around technical points of grammar when I have only say a 30 minute reading slot knowing I have to be awake again in 5-6 hours. I think the natural method goes some way to helping me there. Just my opinion. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Neil_UK Tetraglot Groupie United Kingdom Joined 5264 days ago 50 posts - 64 votes Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto, Welsh Studies: Polish, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Mandarin, Japanese, Scottish Gaelic, French | Message 27 of 53 01 November 2011 at 7:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Hey, thanks for those links. Is there anything similar to that for other languages, such as French, Spanish, etc? Also, is there something like that in audio form? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| cathrynm Senior Member United States junglevision.co Joined 6127 days ago 910 posts - 1232 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Finnish | Message 28 of 53 01 November 2011 at 7:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yeah, this is like Finnish with me, though you had a lot more exposure than I did. I did hear my grandmother speak with my mother in Finnish and we did go to FInland for a summer, but really, I learned the words for 'to eat' and 'to drink' from flash cards. I think maybe they were kind of expecting us to just 'pick up' Finnish, but it never happened. My grandmother did the little thing where she made me say hello and count and stuff, but I think ultimately she was frustrated by incorrect pronunciation and lack of any passive comprehension. I'll take some responsibility for this. At the time for me, Finnish seemed like the gateway language to speaking with old ladies, so maybe my interest level was not too high. Maybe it's more like a complete year that's needed. Dribs and drab of language over a childhood doesn't work, that it has to be constant. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| HMS Senior Member England Joined 5109 days ago 143 posts - 256 votes Speaks: English* | Message 29 of 53 01 November 2011 at 7:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I myself know of no others for different languages - I harvested those links from another thread on this forum. I think it was called "German natural method" and was up about a week ago.
Speaking for myself about this method - I realise I will definitely have to use other materials as well. My reasoning - apart from the obvious, is that as an adult, I'm questioning concepts that a child (who I think it is aimed for) would not think to question. This means I hit self-inflicted blocks for example - following the text I think "why is he using den there instead of der". I find myself puzzling over that and there is no explanation. I have also found it (for me) will be no good for an active command of it's content. Caveat: I have only been dabbling with it for a few days on an as-I-can basis. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| cathrynm Senior Member United States junglevision.co Joined 6127 days ago 910 posts - 1232 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Finnish | Message 30 of 53 01 November 2011 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I kind of suspect it might be possible to make an all German language textbook in German for English speakers. Maybe with a cleverly constructed program that combined the use of English cognates with a gradual introduction of new German vocabulary and grammar. I do have some all Finnish language FInnish textbooks even, though I haven't used these for study.
But if I understand correctly, for this method, the natural method, we can't even use an English-L2 dictionary? What exactly do you do when you see a word and you have no idea what the meaning is? I can see using all-Finnish materials, but I want a grammar book and dictionary with English explanations to help me. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5228 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 31 of 53 01 November 2011 at 8:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
It has been pointed out many times that learning your TL in your TL is entirely possible provided that materials are adequately graded and you start with pretty easy material -- that's why it isn't very efficient. From the transcriber's prologue to the first German books that have been linked:
Remarkable indeed, and much demanding. Which is precisely why I suspect we won't see any more materials like this for a while, especially for arbitrary language pairs.
Take a guess and hope for the best. In a class, when a concise definition or synonym (in the TL of course) wasn't available or didn't work, I've seen people make gestures and draw figures like they were playing Pictionary, go in incredible roundabouts, everything except giving the students a reasonable translation and be done with it in a second. That's the stupidity in it. Edited by mrwarper on 01 November 2011 at 8:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| cathrynm Senior Member United States junglevision.co Joined 6127 days ago 910 posts - 1232 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Finnish | Message 32 of 53 01 November 2011 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well, I can't imagine this for Finnish, but yeah, those books sound pretty interesting -- I did study German in high school, this might be a fun and relatively painless way to jog my memory.
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