|
 |
Learning a language in the target language | ||
Tags: Natural method | Immersion | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5567 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 41 of 53 04 November 2011 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
[/QUOTE] But that's simply not true. Thousands of adults DO learn another language 'automatically' everyday: they go through total immersion while they work in a foreign country without the time or will to do any formal studies. That's as close to 'learning like a baby' as it gets. OTOH, for such immigrants it would be really masochistic to top their situation off by not using their own language whenever they can.
... 'many immigrants DO learn languages 'like babies', but because they are adults with adults' focus, priorities, and goals 1) Many will usually be happy just getting by and they won't be into 'learning the language' at all. 2) Most won't get as far as others who studied did.[/QUOTE] I am sorry for coming on strong here and I have registered your disagreement for all linguistic and brain function research for the past 60 years, but what you as to adults immigrants learning like babies is simply not true. The vast majority of adult immigrants do not learn their target language automatically beyond a certain basic level without some form of formal or informal help. Witness the first generation Pakistani women in England who due to cultural reasons have never acquired more than basic English and pointing. Further the qualifications you make at the end seem to disprove your main proposition - unlike adult immigrants who learn (formally or via osmosis) enough to get by, babies do not acquire 'just enough to get by' in an immersion environment - they develop language in scientifically predictable stages until they start forming original and comprehensive sentences. Its nothing to do with 'getting by' or studying and its nothing to do with adult focus or priorities - it is to do with how babies' brains develop regarding language. Pure 'going native' style immersion in immigrant adults does not have a comparable effect to a baby acquiring a language. I accept that the reasons are not fully known, but the evidence from years of study tends to point to brain development and functioning and not some issue of effort or priorities. Edited by Elexi on 04 November 2011 at 12:22pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5228 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 42 of 53 04 November 2011 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
Not so strong, it is not true, because I didn't whatever you meant :) Maybe I wasn't precise enough. When I said 'learn' I meant 'approach learning', as in 'through total immersion, with absence of conscious studying', i.e. not what they learn in the end, but how they try to learn it. I don't disagree with 'all linguistic and brain function research for the past 60 years', I simply say most of what I've seen regarding it is inconclusive, and thus not 'fact', unlike f.e. the location of visual cortex.
I completely agree because that is not my proposition. If you read my post carefully again replacing 'adults learn' with 'adults try to learn', you'll probably see that what I meant boils down to 'most adults trying to learn a language the same way as children do it fail miserably, or it takes them bloody ages to get anywhere'. As to why processes so similar yield such remarkably different results... Fact #1: adults have different focus, priorities, and abilities than children. Fact #2: many immigrants have told me they do not try to improve their language skills because it would take an effort and they 'get by' anyway. Now, adults seem to lack the ability to acquire pronunciation (by ear) that is present in children (are there any other examples of children superior abilities that are lost in adults?). Saying that it is because of 'brain development' may be reasonable, but still needs proof. However, the facts are that it is an unconscious process and it stopped long ago for adults. So, trying to do it again may be extremely difficult for most adults because they can't do it anymore, but it could also be because they lack practice and they don't know how they did it in the first place. Pronunciation OTOH can be effectively trained and greatly improved through the study of phonology and phonetics just like studying grammar and vocabulary improve everything else. To me, this suggests there are no irreversible neurological changes involved here. As you said yourself, the true reasons behind children being better 'natural learners' than adults are not fully known. Being so, I prefer an explanation based on facts -however incomplete they may be- over one based on speculations about brain structures and inner workings, no matter how appealing they may be. Edited by mrwarper on 04 November 2011 at 2:36pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5567 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 43 of 53 04 November 2011 at 4:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
OK - I understand you better now - thanks for the clarification :)
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6552 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 44 of 53 04 November 2011 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
n+1 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| xandreax Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5902 days ago 142 posts - 160 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 45 of 53 04 November 2011 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
This thread is interesting and reminds me of my situation. Right now I´m in Peru, helping my boyfriend´s brother (Lalo) learn English. He needs to learn enough in order to do well on exams to get into an automotive mechanics program, where he´ll continue to need to study English. Around 10% will make it (with the highest marks) after the four months of ¨pre-study¨. There´s a test once a month.
The students are learning from a book that is completely in English and are expected to learn a lot in a short amount of time. Although the professors in these English classes use some Spanish, it´s not enough to help with the book (their main source of learning) because I asked Lalo how other people learn from the book and understand what´s written and he says, ¨They´re completely lost. They try to translate words from dictionaries and use the internet but it´s not enough because there is a lot of information that we get in a short amount of time¨ (not just general and also technical vocabulary, but grammar too obviously, which gets more and more complex quickly). I looked at the book and thought ¨No wonder Lalo was lost!¨ I put many translations in the book which the other students ask to copy (and they also think Lalo is an English master because of this because most people don´t have anyone to help them with English) and I wrote on several sheets of paper to explain how grammar rules work, the exceptions to these rules, etc (in Spanish, because he´s still a beginner! Explaining in English would be a waste of time… He might ask me, ¨Andrea, ¿qué significa todo esto?¨, then I´d translate it anyway!). He actually started learning quickly after I did this and had one of the highest marks in his class on the first exam. I just can´t imagine a beginner learning as quickly without using his native language to help him or her. 9 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5264 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 46 of 53 05 November 2011 at 3:47am | IP Logged | |||||
|
One exception I think you could make would be closely related languages. For instance, I am learning a lot of Portuguese through Portuguese, but I have Spanish to guide me. I don't know if I could do the same in French, Italian or Romanian but I somehow doubt it. Perhaps French in Action, but I don't think I would use FIA alone and the course books, I think, do have some English.
How about bilingual English/German speakers learning Dutch or Afrikaans through the target language? Dutch or Afrikaans speakers learning Afrikaans or Dutch. There are numerous examples of Dutch speakers learning English through media. What about Russian or Ukrainian speakers learning Ukrainian or Russian- Mandarin or Cantonese speakers learning Cantonese or Mandarin- French or Italian speakers learning Italian or French? Would learning the target languages through the target languages work for these pairs? Edited by iguanamon on 05 November 2011 at 3:52am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6911 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 47 of 53 05 November 2011 at 7:12am | IP Logged | |||||
Probably yes, a colleague of mine says that she learned Polish in six months by watching TV. Her native language is Lithuanian and she also knows Russian (and English and Swedish...). The more similar the languages are, I wonder if it's "learning" or merely getting used to the language etc. I can understand Norwegian pretty well without having devoted a single minute on formal studies, but I can't speak it. Should I ever decide to learn Norwegian, material written in the target language would of course work. Probably the same for Dutch/Afrikaans speakers. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jinx Triglot Senior Member Germany reverbnation.co Joined 5695 days ago 1085 posts - 1879 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Catalan, Dutch, Esperanto, Croatian, Serbian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish, Yiddish | Message 48 of 53 05 November 2011 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
I think you're really getting somewhere now – this sounds a lot closer to an "ideal method", in my opinion. It reminds me of how I learned German. I signed up for an immersion course (15 hours a week), where we had some English explanations for the first week and after that everything was in German. My professor was a very talented and patient teacher, the textbook we were using was remarkably good, and everyone in the class was extremely motivated (you had to be, to make yourself go to the same class three times a day, five days a week, and do homework in between every class session – i.e., also three times a day). However, these three factors (exceptional teacher, materials, and student motivation) are the reason why I think you can't assume this method would work for everyone – because it's rare that you get all three at once. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
