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Just how exactly do you learn Gaelic? | ||
Tags: Gaelic (Scottish) | Learning Strategy | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Neil_UK Tetraglot Groupie United Kingdom Joined 5267 days ago 50 posts - 64 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto, Welsh Studies: Polish, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Mandarin, Japanese, Scottish Gaelic, French | Message 17 of 35 21 October 2011 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
The point of the listening sections is to enable the student to get used to hearing, in context, what they've learned, so they're able to understand native speakers/radio/tv etc. I found the listening sessions really useful and they've definitely improved my listening comprehension skills in Welsh. One of the problems with most languages courses, including MT Method, is that there is no listening practice (or usually listening practice that revolves around silly dialogues). As such, the student might be able to SPEAK the language after doing a MT course...but when they listen to natives speaking, or when they listen to the radio or watch tv in the native language, they will be lost. That being the case, I think it's a brilliant idea to do listening practice that focuses entirely on the material you've learned to speak. MT Method is brilliant, but it could be improved if there was listening practice. If they did listening practice for the material covered in the foundation courses and for the advanced courses, it would dramatically improve the MT Method. I like the idea of daily practice sessions too - this enables the student to maintain what they've learned (while only having to spend 10 mins or so per day on the practice sessions), so they don't have to go back and do the course again. Some of the MT Method courses have review courses, others don't, but I think it's a good idea to be able to review what you've learned from time to time so you don't lose it. Interestingly enough, 'Say Something In Spanish' is due to be released shortly, too, so it will be interesting to have daily practice sessions and listening practice for the Spanish too. Although I doubt the course will be as good as Michel Thomas's Spanish course (which was fantastic), Edited by Neil_UK on 21 October 2011 at 10:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6016 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 18 of 35 22 October 2011 at 4:21am | IP Logged | |||||
No, sorry. There was no "context" -- there was just a series of disconnected sentences.
Nope. I'm sorry, but I've just read this after coming back from (more than) a few drinks, and I'm not going to be diplomatic about this, so I'll just say it straight: listening "practice" is nonsense. If I can say something I can understand it. If I can't say it, then I can't understand it. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5303 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 19 of 35 22 October 2011 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
I understand some languages quite well (e.g. Dutch, Swedish) without e v e r having spoken them, yet ... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chris Heptaglot Senior Member Japan Joined 7126 days ago 287 posts - 452 votes Speaks: English*, Russian, Indonesian, French, Malay, Japanese, Spanish Studies: Dutch, Korean, Mongolian | Message 20 of 35 22 October 2011 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
I know what you mean here. I could understand a great deal of Portuguese (Brazilian especially) through my knowledge of Spanish before ever embarking on a study of that language. I also understood a surprising amount of Dutch from my native English, very limited German, less limited but by no means fluent Swedish, and (believe it or not) my extensive study of Indonesian before I ever started studying Dutch. I know where Caintear's frustration comes from though, because most of what he says about language learning reflects my views exactly. In fact I can't recall a post of his I disagree with. I have not been to the pub tonight, but I would rephrase his claim as 'If I haven't learnt it, then I can't understand it'. This is because I think that, as learners, we all have a passive knowledge of language items we are yet to make active. Furthermore, there are a great many words and phrases in English I understand but would never use. I would, foor example, never use forms of English like 'daiper', 'Y'oll', 'G'day mate' and 'wee bairn' but I understand them all the same. I don't think we're talking about languages with transparency here, though. Take English and Japanese for example. Many Japanese adult learners of English complain that they can't understand English and that what's wrong is their 'English hearing'. However, the real problem lies in the fact that they haven't learned enough English to process the English input they are receiving so they obviously can't understand it. It has nothing to do with hearing, but with how much one is prepared to learn. If you don't know it, you're guessing for most of the time. Oh, sure, a lot can be picked up from context, but - somewhat ironically - language testing for listening is done without any of that situational context in place, through listening to an audio track alone. I take issue with this because it is unrealitic. Most native spekears will slow down and simplify what they say to aid in a foreigner's comprehension. Edited by Chris on 22 October 2011 at 4:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| dbag Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5027 days ago 605 posts - 1046 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 21 of 35 22 October 2011 at 8:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
Really? There are a lot of things I can say, but cant understand when spoken quickly, and there are a lot of things I can understand, but would struggle to say. I had the impression that listening practice was an important part of learning a language? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5788 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 22 of 35 22 October 2011 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't like the whole philosophy of breaking learning down into skills and sub-skills;
I think there are more helpful ways of looking at learning, I'm sure that a fair few of you would agree with me about that. I remember in Spain I could say much more than I could understand; now after 3 years back in the UK, with zero opportunity for conversation, but plenty of watching TV and reading in Spanish I can understand much more than I can say, so I do think I know where dbag is coming from- BUT (and this is my point- finally), I just don't believe that it is in anyway helpful to look at that in terms of having decent receptive skills and poor productive skills (and formally poor productive skills and abysmal reeptive skills), I just don't feel like the two are separate; nor do I believe that this imbalance in my Spanish abilities invalidates Cainntear's point because understanding is not binary. If I can understand the gist of piece of language with the help of strong contextual cues I will hardly be able to produce it; if I understand (own) it with a near-native level of fluency ease and completeness I certainly can. My level of understanding of most pieces of Spanish is somewhere in between, and my productive ability reflects that. For instance, I understood the Harry Potter books well enough to be able to easily discuss with my sister (she has read them in English and I have only read them in Spanish) plot differences between the books and films. I was able to do so with no apparent inaccuracies, so I feel like I understood them pretty damn well really; but equally that is definitely a case of pretty strong context. If you were to feed me random sentences from the books with only that minimal context that even an advanced or native speaker would require to resolve ambiguity, then I am fairly sure that the sentences I understood would be precisely those I could produce. I can be a bit long-winded sometimes (sorry), but in short I agree with Cainntear, though I'm not sure whether or not he'd agree with what I've written to be fair to him. N.B. How do I explain that in Spain I could say more than I could understand? Because I diligently learned to understand the Spanish in my textbooks, but couldn't understand most "real" Spanish. I was able to produce exactly what I understood. Edited by Random review on 22 October 2011 at 11:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5303 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 23 of 35 23 October 2011 at 1:59am | IP Logged | |||||
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It is nice to see that people describe their views and feelings, but please don't get fooled:
"so I'll just say it straight: listening "practice" is nonsense. If I can say something I can understand it. If I can't say it, then I can't understand it." Listening practice is useful, and everybody knows it. And the second statement is just totally wrong, and everybody knows it, again. I really don't care who wrote this and if he was drunken or just mislead by some bad introductory courses he has fossilized in his mind and made an ideology he keeps spreading in 1000s of postings. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5788 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 24 of 35 23 October 2011 at 3:23am | IP Logged | |||||
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Er, I'm somebody, and I don't know it, did I miss a survey or something ;-)? On a serious
note, obviously listening practice is useful for getting better at, erm...listening practice, I don't think any sane person would dispute that; how useful it is for language learning in general, however, is still a live debate (I think it's nonsense too), and I'd even go as far as to say that how useful it is for improving the very specific skill of understanding when you hear people talking is up for debate too (I'm not sure, but I suspect "not very" for all but absolute beginners). Edited by Random review on 23 October 2011 at 3:29am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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