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US vs UK English for learners

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tractor
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Norway
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1349 posts - 2292 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan
Studies: French, German, Latin

 
 Message 121 of 136
29 November 2011 at 5:58am | IP Logged 
Languages evolve in both the former colonies and in Europe. There are rhotic and non-rhotic English dialects on
both sides of the Atlantic. The pronunciation of vowels in New Zealand English has changed over the past century or
two. Latin American Spanish has lost a phonemic distinction still present in standard Peninsular Spanish between
caza and casa, cocer and coser. Dropping of certain consonants such as post-vocalic -s and intervocalic -d- is
common in dialects on both sides of the Atlantic. The distinction between the pronunciation of y and ll is
disappearing on both sides of the Atlantic. H in words like harina is still pronounced in a few dialects in Spain. How
were the languages supposed to be pronounced? The way people spoke a hundred years ago? The way the first
colonisers pronounced them? The way Anglo-Saxons and Romans pronounced them? The way cavemen pronounced
them?
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sei
Diglot
Senior Member
Portugal
Joined 5942 days ago
178 posts - 191 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, English
Studies: German, Japanese

 
 Message 122 of 136
29 November 2011 at 3:16pm | IP Logged 
ppfarj wrote:

I could say the same about Brazilian Portuguese and Continental Portuguese. I might be
a bit biased, since I was born and bread in Brazil, but Portugal as a country is going
down the hill.. I'm half Portuguese and feel bad about it. On the other side, you've
got Brazil booming economically. Currently Portuguese people watch Brazilian media
(soap operas, films, TV new, etc), they listen to Brazilian music and read books from
Brazilian authors. Many are even emigrating to Brazil. The majority of speakers of
Portuguese live in Brazil as well.


Sorry, but that's just trying to feather your own nest... Exactly the same can be said regarding Brazilians. They watch and listen to Portuguese media all the time, they read loads of books from Portuguese authors, and we have so many Brazilian emigrants it's crazy! Brazil is a bigger country, so obviously there are a lot more speakers... But personally, I don't think that's at all relevant. European Portuguese is the original Portuguese, we brought it to Brazil and then the Brazilian dialect emerged (I quite like it mind you, I just hate these comparisons between then... Specially when they make no sense. They're different, that's it.)

Quote:

Brazilian or Brazilian Portuguese has become so important lately that Portugal, along
with most other Portuguese speaking countries made many concessions to unify and make
up one single official Portuguese orthography - 98% percent identical.There are no 2
different ones, any more. Therefore, it made things even easier for students, since now you just need to worry about which accent you prefer speaking/ listening to - btw the Brazilian one has been the most popular, so far! ;-p


It's clearly made it easier for Brazilians. For Portuguese? We still have to see, really. As a SLP, and being a tutor and in contact with so many teachers, I have trouble seeing the benefits of this change for Portuguese people. As my personal opinion, disregarding my professional one, I hate the change and am totally against it. It's denigrating for European Portuguese linguistic culture. It's a lazy solution basically. I'm more than pretty sure the majority of Portuguese are against this new orthography. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in a few years time it reversed back again.

tritone wrote:

It should be noted that the pronunciation of colonial languages is usually much more conservative, while in Europe they change wildly, and this is certainly the case with English and Portuguese - the latter being the most extreme example.

So, one who chooses to learn contemporary European pronunciation would just be following the latest linguistic caprices of Europeans. American varieties are more true to the language and the way words were meant to be pronounced.

[...]

Portuguese has changed so radically that it doesn't even sound a romance language any more, it's full of muted vowels and elisions. Brazilians still pronounce almost everything.

   


Not trying to be rude but... where did you find this nonsense?? Do you have linguistic background, read linguistic studies at all? Seriously, where did you find these??

I'm not even going to argument this, because it's simply a waste of time. It just sounds like a completely biased opinion.
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j0nas
Triglot
Groupie
Norway
Joined 5543 days ago
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Speaks: Norwegian*, English, German

 
 Message 123 of 136
29 November 2011 at 8:53pm | IP Logged 
tritone wrote:

For example we pronounce Rs in North America, because they were always pronounced, that's
why they're written there; the british have lost sight of this.   


This man is from North America: http://youtu.be/dN8_QsYQ1M4

This man is from Britain: http://youtu.be/0_fWUKLUAb8

Who's pronouncing the R's here? :P
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tritone
Senior Member
United States
reflectionsinpo
Joined 6121 days ago
246 posts - 385 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish, Portuguese, French

 
 Message 124 of 136
30 November 2011 at 6:50pm | IP Logged 
sei wrote:
...read linguistic studies at all? Seriously, where did you find these??


yes.

Essentially, in the 17th/18th centuries continental portuguese went through dramatic phonetic changes, which is why they speak the way they do now, and Brazilians didn't follow suit.

Quote:
During the 18th century, other differences between the American and European Portuguese developed. At that time Brazilian Portuguese failed to adopt linguistic changes taking place in Portugal produced by French influence. The Brazilian Portuguese remained loyal to the pronunciation used at the time of its discovery.


Quote:
Denis Russo Burgierman

Se é que Cabral gritou alguma coisa quando avistou os contornos do Monte Pascoal, certamente não foi "terra ã vishta", assim com o "a" abafado e o "s" chiado que associamos ao sotaque português. No século XVI, nossos primos lusos não engoliam vogais nem chiavam nas consoantes — essas modas surgiram no século XVII. Cabral teria berrado um "a" bem pronunciado e dito "vista" com o "s" sibilante igual ao dos paulistas de hoje. Na verdade, nós, brasileiros, mantivemos os sons que viraram arcaísmos empoeirados para os portugueses.

http://super.abril.com.br/superarquivo/2000/conteudo_124048. shtml


Quote:
Conservative aspects of Brazilian Portuguese

   1. In EP, the implosive [s] and [z] are pronounced as palatal [] and []: vista is pronounced ['vita], mesmo is pronounced ['memu]. This is an innovation of EP that occurred at the 18th century. In BP, these words are pronounced ['vista] and ['mezmu]. In Rio de Janeiro and in some other zones of Brazilian coast, the EP pronunciation may be found; this is probably due to the relusitanisation occurred at 1808, with the coming of the Portuguese Royal Family.
   2. The non-stressed final vowels which are spelled e and o are pronounced in EP [] and , but in BP they are pronounced and . For example, passe is pronounced ['pas] in EP, but ['pasi] in BP. This is clearly a trait conserved by BP, because Luís Antônio Verney, in Verdadeiro Método de Estudar (1746) tells that the Portuguese pronounce ("incorrectly", he says) e and o like and . This also occurs with the non-stressed final a: it is pronounced [] in EP, but [a] in BP, although shorter than the stressed a. For example: passa is pronounced ['pasa] in BP, but ['pas] in EP.
   3. The non-stressed non-final vowels [e] and [o] are pronounced [] and in EP, and [e] and [o] in BP (see also item 6). For example, meter and morar are pronounced [m'te] and [mu'a] in EP, but [me'te] and [mo'ra] in BP. (1) The same occurs with a: it is pronounced [] in EP, and [a] in BP (cadeira is pronounced [k'dj] in EP and [ka'dea] in BP). In BP, there are also some words that can be pronounced either with or [o], either with [e] or : [me'ninu] or [mi'ninu] (for menino), [ku'stumi] or [ko'stumi] for costume.
   4. The diphthong spelled ei is pronounced [j] in EP, but [ej] in BP. This also occurs when the diphthong is nasal (tem is pronounced [tj] in EP and [tj] in BP). But even in EP, this pronunciation is geographically marked, and is a very recent innovation. In both variants of the language there is sometimes a reduction of [ej] to [e]: (2) brasileiro is pronounced [bazi'leu] (rarely [bazi'leju]) in BP. But there are words that don't suffer this reduction: peito and lei, for example, are pronounced [pejtu] and [lej] in BP. Nowadays, this phenomenon is receiving more attention.

http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Portuguese-Brazilian/Brazil ian-Phonology.htm


There were innovations both in brazil and portugal, but Brazilian pronunciation is still more conservative, and more closely resembles the way words are written.


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tritone
Senior Member
United States
reflectionsinpo
Joined 6121 days ago
246 posts - 385 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish, Portuguese, French

 
 Message 125 of 136
30 November 2011 at 6:57pm | IP Logged 
j0nas wrote:
tritone wrote:

For example we pronounce Rs in North America, because they were always pronounced, that's
why they're written there; the british have lost sight of this.   


This man is from North America: http://youtu.be/dN8_QsYQ1M4

This man is from Britain: http://youtu.be/0_fWUKLUAb8

Who's pronouncing the R's here? :P


That first video is an example of a non-standard dialect. General American English (the standard that is taught to foreigners) is rhotic, wheras most british accents are not.
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sei
Diglot
Senior Member
Portugal
Joined 5942 days ago
178 posts - 191 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, English
Studies: German, Japanese

 
 Message 126 of 136
01 December 2011 at 2:35am | IP Logged 
tritone wrote:

There were innovations both in brazil and portugal, but Brazilian pronunciation is still more conservative, and more closely resembles the way words are written.



Sure, at their own way it's more closely related to the written word, unless you count the complete adaptation of the accent(pronunciation) - which doesn't resemble the original, old, Portuguese. lol :)
If you look at old Portuguese (and I think this phenomenon can be easily found in other languages as well), the written word was written in a much more complicated manner than how it was actually read. Eventually that got simplified to make it easier. Speech is exactly the same. Certain sounds just are hard to pronounce after others, so in order to have a more fluent and faster speech, people eventually end up changing how they say things, so much that that eventually becomes the norm and standard pronunciation.
I've seen most Brazilians struggle to understand old Portuguese (spoken), on the other hand, Portuguese people while obviously having some difficulty initially due to the strangeness, don't struggle nearly as much. Perhaps due to the old pronunciation? :)

I've steered a bit from the topic, sorry.

Edited by sei on 01 December 2011 at 8:54pm
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j0nas
Triglot
Groupie
Norway
Joined 5543 days ago
46 posts - 70 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, English, German

 
 Message 127 of 136
01 December 2011 at 5:03pm | IP Logged 
tritone wrote:

That first video is an example of a non-standard dialect. General American English (the
standard that is taught to foreigners) is rhotic, wheras most british accents are not.


You dont say.
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FELlX
Diglot
Groupie
France
Joined 4771 days ago
94 posts - 149 votes 
Speaks: French*, English

 
 Message 128 of 136
01 December 2011 at 9:01pm | IP Logged 
cordelia0507 wrote:
If you are a speaker of English as a foreign language, do you model your accent on British or American English? What did you base your decision on?


As far as I'm concerned, British English. I've been exposed to it quite often in class; plus, adopting it helped me suppress a sizeable part of my French accent which is much more distinguishable when I try to speak American English (especially its Rs). As a matter of fact, I don't like the French accent in English, although I probably won't be able to totally get rid of it, ever.


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