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US vs UK English for learners | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5839 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes  Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 57 of 136 18 May 2009 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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pmiller - you argue your opinion well, but it really hurts my ears and my pride as a European to hear new English learners from Europe talk like phony Americans! (They don't actually sound like Americans, but the attempt to sound American makes their vowels sound awful!)
After all, we have a very respectable English speaking country on our own continent - which incidentally invented the language! Why should we mimmick the accents of the countrymen who abandoned the continent in the 19th century... Take speakers of Slavic languages for example - add some American accent to the difficulties they already have with English and you get a result that sounds.. bad! I also cringe whenever I hear fellow Scandinavians speak with an American accent, but most of them realise the error of their ways after spending some time with English people and change their accent (it's not hard if it's not your native tongue in the first place). I don't care what Asians and other non-Europeans choose - it's a different situation altogether with Japanese, Koreans etc. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Sennin Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 6035 days ago 1457 posts - 1759 votes 5 sounds | Message 58 of 136 18 May 2009 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | ||
At the time they left the country their accents were still English (or Scottish and in some cases Irish; Most Irish were delivered in America against their will, if I recall correctly). After the colonies were established, a lot of Europeans from outwith the British Isles also joined the party. Their accents intermingled and slowly drifted away... My point is, people in America are not exclusively of British ancestry, they are the descendants of half a dozen European nations (and not only). I'm afraid your historical argument doesn't hold. However, there are practical reasons that often make BE the better choice. Edited by Sennin on 19 May 2009 at 10:09am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| pmiller Account terminated Groupie Canada Joined 5675 days ago 99 posts - 104 votes Speaks: English* | Message 59 of 136 18 May 2009 at 10:49pm | IP Logged | ||
Huh... interesting. Where I grew up (American Midwest) people unselfconsciously pronounce it more like the French way I guess. I had no idea it could be pronounced BURN-uhd. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| alunap Newbie Scotland Joined 5724 days ago 15 posts - 15 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Latin, French | Message 60 of 136 18 May 2009 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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Who knows, maybe it's just me ;^)
As for class, I don't think this comes in much at all. There are certainly 'posh' accents, but you don't hear them except in comedies and the Queen's speech (well, depending on the circles you move in, I guess). I think it is more a matter of educational level, and the same thing applies to American accents. To me, a Bronx accent, or a Louisiana accent, sounds uneducated, whereas a New England or Californian accent generally sounds educated. In the UK, if I hear someone using those godawful glottal stops they immediately drop down the scale, but it is not a matter of birth so much as education. Which isn't to say there are no classes, but that classes are mobile, not fixed as they once were. Again, going back to the original question: if the OP succeeded, and could adopt an accent so well that people took him/her to be from that area, and that area was America/UK/Canada/Bermuda/Australia/New Zealand/BVI/Gibraltar or wherever, which one of those would make you happy? No point in having a goal if you are not happy when you reach it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| pmiller Account terminated Groupie Canada Joined 5675 days ago 99 posts - 104 votes Speaks: English* | Message 61 of 136 18 May 2009 at 11:22pm | IP Logged | ||
Thanks for the compliment - it's nice to hear. Well, I certainly understand that it may make more sense for Europeans (who plan to stay in Europe and not immigrate to North America) to learn the British variety - after all, they'll probably be interacting with a lot more British people than Americans. But I don't quite see where "European pride" comes into it, especially as your first language is apparently Swedish, not (British) English. To say that England "invented English" isn't quite right, of course - it's more accurate to say that many dialects and accents evolved in the British isles, most of which are lumped together and called "English", even when many are almost mutually unintelligible. And none of them are really more "correct" than the others... they're just different. The beauty of standard American English, to me, is that it's sort of a blending together or "evening out" of various British accents. (*I think*... someone correct me if I'm wrong). Plus the accent probably came to correspond more closely (phonetically) to the written language because so many new Americans had to learn English as their second language, and so would've tended to pronounce words more closely to the way they're written, while in Britain the spelling remained frozen while dialects and accents changed radically over time. Actually, the most common heritage among Americans (or maybe just among white Americans, I'm not sure) is German, followed by Irish and then British. Then there are the Africans, Italians, Polish, Jews, Mexicans and everyone else under the sun who've all come here and become Americans. Of course most people are now of mixed heritage, especially outside of the south and mountain west, but the point is that the vast majority of Americans are descended from people who had to learn English as a foreign language. To me, all of this means that the American accent became more logical and easier for foreigners to learn. (I could be wrong about this too - frankly I have no idea how the standard North American accent came to be so different from British varieties - I'm just guessing here. Please, anyone correct me if I'm wrong in these theories - I'd love to hear how it actually happened!) But I guess some in Europe might look down on such an evolution, seeing in in a more negative light as devolution or "mongrelization" or something. Is that where the pride thing comes in? And I don't understand why Asians and other non-Europeans are a different situation altogether... can you help me understand your thinking? I remember hearing a German term for American English which I can't even reproduce here because it sounds so offensive to American sensibilities, but it essentially means "black English". Is that what this is about? Edited by pmiller on 18 May 2009 at 11:28pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Sennin Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 6035 days ago 1457 posts - 1759 votes 5 sounds | Message 62 of 136 18 May 2009 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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Let the flame war begin... ^_^
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| pmiller Account terminated Groupie Canada Joined 5675 days ago 99 posts - 104 votes Speaks: English* | Message 63 of 136 19 May 2009 at 2:43am | IP Logged | ||
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No, no flame war... Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I was just trying to understand Cordelia's opinion, that's all. God knows I've got some strange opinions myself, so I'm not one to judge. Just trying to understand, that's all. Really.
Apologies in advance if I've ruffled any feathers - it wasn't my intention. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5839 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 64 of 136 19 May 2009 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | ||
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pmiller - Totally agree, there is no need to flame about this.. It won't change anything, just create a bad atmosphere.
But since you asked, here is a summary of the reasons for my opinion about this: 1) England is in Europe and it is more logical to base ones accent on the nearest English speaking country. Hence many well educated people from sub-saharan Africa sound a bit South African when they speak. This makes sense. Europeans ought to to do the same. 2) I prefer the sound of British English IN EUROPE. I also think it generally sounds nicer than most American accents - but this is subjective. I accept that Americans use different words for some things and that's ok. But when teaching English, I think the English word should be tought. Otherwise the course is American English or International English perhaps. 3) However, if I emigrated to the United States (for example married there) I would NOT hang on to my British accent on principle, but allow it to fade away - this would no doubt happen quite quickly since I am not actually a native speaker. When in Rome.. 4) Currently the "cultural dominance" of the US in Europe is a source of irritation to many Europeans. Many genuinely feel that a lot of the stuff coming out of the US appeals to the lowest common denonminator, it's too commercialised and that it knocks out regional culture. Also, it is very common for Europeans to dissapprove of certain aspects of US foreign policy. Somehow in people's minds (including mine) this gets mixed up with which accent you choose... For example, it sounded silly to me when one of the founders of Piratebay.com was interviewed on a news channel and made some fairly typical anti-american comments that were relevant to his situation. But he spoke English with a very obvious and artificial sounding American accent! For no reason since he's never lived there; he lives in Berlin. He must have picked it up from TV because Swedish schools teach British English only. I know many English people feel the same way. When I first moved here I used some American words that I picked up in Asia.. EVERY time this happened people jumped on it until I had completely stopped it. The argument was: Well you are European, why should you use American words? However English people still feel awkward about some aspects of the the British Empire and having forced its culture, language and religion onto others who didn't necessarily want it. Britain has burned its nose with this and as a result does not stand up for the English language internationally as much as it might. (In fact, all large nations in Europe have had and lost a large empire at some point: Roman empire, British Empire, French cultural influence, Swedish, Conquistadores, Nazis, Greek, Soviet Union, etc.. All of these forced it's culture onto others to some extent. At the moment we are getting a taste of our own medicine - from America! I don't dislike Americans at all and there are lots of things about America that I really admire. It's just that you can get too much of a good thing. European kids speaking English with an American accent falls into that category, in my opionion. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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