From the grammar book to your mouth (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

From the grammar book to your mouth
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

58 messages over 8 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next >>

mrwarper
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Message 41 of 58

16 February 2012 at 10:21am | IP Logged

Марк wrote:

Grammar in your own language is needed in order to write
correctly.

Not if you think all ways of writing are equally correct.
Why would that be important? ;(
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Serpent
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Message 42 of 58

16 February 2012 at 10:58am | IP Logged

LaughingChimp wrote:

Serpent wrote:

LaughingChimp wrote:

Serpent wrote:

Anyway, it's entirely possible in a language which is very regular, for example Finnish.

It doesn't matter it's regular.

In my experience it does. Which "regular" languages do you have experience with?

In my experience it doesn't. Knowing the grammar rules does not translate to the ability to actually use them. And it's not just my experience.

Oh then we were talking about different things. I never said knowing the rules means automatically being able to use them. I was talking about exercises, that's how I learned the Finnish grammar. It sounded like you meant it's better to just learn correct sentences, and then eventually you'll start using the grammar correctly. Which is possible and which is what I've been trying to do in my Romance languages, but which isn't the only way or always the best way.
I think part of the reason why Esperanto is so easy is exactly that it's one of the languages where you can understand the rules, do exercises and easily learn to use the grammar automatically. People expect to be able to do that in any language but it doesn't happen as easily even in Spanish or many other languages that are considered easy.
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Марк
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Message 43 of 58

16 February 2012 at 12:07pm | IP Logged

Spanish is not very easy, not easier than other languages.
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Serpent
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Message 44 of 58

16 February 2012 at 12:37pm | IP Logged

I said it's considered easy :)
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mrwarper
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Message 45 of 58

16 February 2012 at 1:51pm | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

I said it's considered easy :)

Judging from how often we have to explain ourselves all over again here, I guess we might also have a very heated debate over the convenience of training kids' reading comprehension skills at school as well ;)

@Mapk: Serpent's comment seemed the perfect lead to say that, but this post is otherwise unrelated to you :)

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LaughingChimp
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Message 46 of 58

16 February 2012 at 1:54pm | IP Logged

PillowRock wrote:

LaughingChimp wrote:

Марк wrote:

Understanding your own language is not useless. Especially when learning other
languages.

Can you explain why you think so? Many people in my country say this too, but I don't understand it. Why should be your L1 grammar relevant at all?

If you've already studied the grammar of your native language before starting starting to study any L2, it will mean that you have already acquired a vocabulary for talking about (or reading about) grammar. If you haven't already learned what adverbs, indirect objects, etc. are through your own language then you'll have spend L2 study time learning those concepts. That extra material being mixed in with your language learning can't help but slow down your progress.

I was talking about learning another language, not studyng grammar of another language. Of course it's helpful if you want to study grammar, but the argument is often used for learning to SPEAK another language.

PillowRock wrote:

Also, business interactions need to be sufficiently "proper" (whatever that means in a given language and culture) so as to avoid driving away business by giving the impression of being unprofessional and / or uneducated.

True, dialects and accents are probably the last things where discrimination is still acceptable.

PillowRock wrote:

There's no reason that one necessarily needs to stop saying things like "He be learnin' me to talk gooder" with family and friends. However, if one hopes for much chance of economic upward mobility, it would behoove them to learn to use the "standard" grammar rules as well.

Don't you think that English would become a richer language if it allowed the additional tenses from Ebonics?

Марк wrote:

I forgot a very important thing. Grammar in your own language is needed in order to write
correctly. For example, in French: mot/mots, bleu/bleue. In Russian: ночь - луч, деревне
- деревни. In English: their/there.

Spelling is not grammar.

Serpent wrote:

Oh then we were talking about different things. I never said knowing the rules means automatically being able to use them. I was talking about exercises, that's how I learned the Finnish grammar.

Obviously. Read again the first post of this thread.

Serpent wrote:

I think part of the reason why Esperanto is so easy is exactly that it's one of the languages where you can understand the rules, do exercises and easily learn to use the grammar automatically. People expect to be able to do that in any language but it doesn't happen as easily even in Spanish or many other languages that are considered easy.

Esperanto was designed to be easily learned by bizarre teaching methods that were used at the time. Many people still think it's a good idea to learn that way and necessarily fail with a natural language, but they will be able to learn Esperanto.
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Марк
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Message 47 of 58

16 February 2012 at 2:01pm | IP Logged

Spelling is not grammar.
But it depends on grammar.
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Марк
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Message 48 of 58

16 February 2012 at 2:02pm | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

I said it's considered easy :)

By whom?

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