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Confusion over the Arabic language. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Sionis Newbie United States Joined 4900 days ago 33 posts - 34 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Russian, Romanian | Message 1 of 29 14 October 2011 at 6:43am | IP Logged |
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So, I have recently gained in interest in Arabic after a couple of months of study in Russian, though Romanian is looking attractive again as well. Anyways to get back on point, I fully understand that Arabic is a multi-dialect language, but what I don't understand is how intelligible it is from Arabic dialect to Arabic dialect. I understand that Egyptian is the more understood dialect becasue of the Egyptian entertainment and media field, but I was speaking to someone from somewhere in the Gulf (either Oman or Kuwait, I forgot where he mentioned, and he claimed that an Arabic speaker should have no problem speaking to and understanding another Arabic speaker, with Algerians and Moroccans apparently being an exception. Another man from Jordan also said something on the lines of that same thing, but he basically confirmed his comment when he started talking to an American man who has spent some time in Sudan, and they could perfectly understand each other.
Now I'm not 100% sure if Arabic is a language I want to pursue, but seeing how I am looking into a career in the Armed Forces, this could defiantly be a major asset. But I don't want to study such a complicated language and only being able to speak with a certain few coming from the area with the dialect I choose to learn is spoken. Which the only two that really came to mind is Egyptian Arabic and Levantine Arabic, but that has a lot to do with accessibility of learning materials with these two versions. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| arturs Triglot Senior Member Latvia Joined 5271 days ago 278 posts - 408 votes  Speaks: Latvian*, Russian, English | Message 2 of 29 14 October 2011 at 10:49am | IP Logged |
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The differences between the dialects aren't so big, so it's really not so hard to understand each other, because it's still the same language. It's not like Egyptian Arabic is a completely different language from Gulf Arabic. Egyptian is considered the most understood dialect because of the media etc, at the same time the Gulf Arabic is considered closer to classical Arabic or MSA.
If you really will decide to learn Arabic, you should still learn MSA. I personally don't get this all "I'll learn just the dialect" thing. When you'll go to a certain area, you will grasp the local dialect naturally. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Humdereel Octoglot Groupie United States Joined 4978 days ago 90 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English, Spanish*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Written), Turkish, Persian, Urdu Studies: Russian | Message 3 of 29 15 October 2011 at 1:11am | IP Logged |
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From my experience, I agree with what the Arabic speakers and arturs told you. Generally, an Egyptian doesn't need much time to understand someone from the Levant or Gulf, and vice versa. Although there are differences that make them different dialects, they're simply that -- variants of the same language. Some people have the idea that learning Arabic is like learning two or more languages, but in my experience, that is not the case...unless you're focusing on the Maghrebi dialects or other more divergent ones (like Hassaniya).
When I started learning Arabic, I started with MSA, and that's what I would recommend to any prospective learners -- that is, if they want to fully grasp Arabic as a language. MSA provides the structure, the rules, and the guidelines to the language. Although it's not the form of Arabic most common for speaking on the streets, most Arabs understand it, regardless of whether you're in Morocco or Iraq or Oman. It's the form used for most writing and literature as well as informative media (news, current events, several historical documentaries, etc.). A dialect, on the other hand, is more simplified and most of them don't have a set of strict rules, not to mention there's an even smaller amount of reliable learning materials for them than there is for MSA. Anyhow, onto your question about the dialects. I lived in several Arab countries for different spans of time (ranging from five months to three years), and I found that the dialects -- specifically Egyptian, Levantine, Gulf, Iraqi, etc. -- are not dramatically different. All that's needed is some exposure and then you can adjust your listening skills to pick up on subtleties. However, from my experience in Morocco and Tunisia, I found that the dialects were indeed harder to understand despite my previous experience in the Levant, Gulf, and Egypt. They are more influenced by other languages (such as Berber, French, Italian, and Spanish), than most other dialects and thus it requires more work to get used to it. In short, if I were to give advice to someone interested in Arabic, I'd recommend learning MSA (for universal understanding, literature, and informative media), and tackling a dialect you're interested in (preferrably not Maghrebi, but if it seriously interests you, then go ahead. Just take note that it's the least intelligible among MSA and the other dialects). As a result, you only really need to grasp MSA and a dialect, since from there, there aren't significant enough differences that make learning the language like learning "several languages". Allow some time for exposure, and you'd be fine. I've found Arabic to be a challenging but rewarding language. Edited by Humdereel on 15 October 2011 at 1:13am 7 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Sionis Newbie United States Joined 4900 days ago 33 posts - 34 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Russian, Romanian | Message 4 of 29 15 October 2011 at 6:59am | IP Logged |
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Thank you both for the informative answers that help clear up a lot of confusion about the Arabic language. Out of curoisty, what programs (books, tapes, etc.) would you two, or any other Arabic speakers here, recommend for self study of MSA?
Also, out of curoisty Humdereel, what challenges have you come across in Arabic? And what were the rewards gained? The grammar seems to have it complications, but it also seems very logical. It's the alphabet and pronunciation that is frighting to me when considering studying Arabic. And again, out of curoisty, unless you're interested in Arab literature or reading the Quran in it's original language, what are the benefits of learning to read and write the Arabic script? Edited by Sionis on 15 October 2011 at 7:02am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6272 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 5 of 29 15 October 2011 at 3:39pm | IP Logged |
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If you are primarily interested in the spoken dialects of Arabic, the script is not so important, since the dialects are not written anyway.
1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Humdereel Octoglot Groupie United States Joined 4978 days ago 90 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English, Spanish*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Written), Turkish, Persian, Urdu Studies: Russian | Message 6 of 29 15 October 2011 at 6:22pm | IP Logged |
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What challenges have you come across in Arabic?
If I were you, I wouldn't freak out about the alphabet and pronunciation. Yes, those scribbles, dots, and the calligraphy seem complicated at first glimpse, but if you were to tackle the alphabet at a structured pace, then it's not that difficult to learn. In fact, it was one of the easiest parts of Arabic for me to learn. It's just about learning how to write a few letters, recognize how they change slightly depending on where they are, and then practicing. One who does it intensively could feel comfortable with joining and writing letters within 2-3 weeks of studying. Some of the sounds are certainly tough to produce for a non-native speaker, such as "'ayn" and "ghayn" and some of the harsher letters, but if you're able to practice it, it shouldn't become a huge obstacle. The hardest part for me was the complexity of the grammar. Basic grammar is rather easy to understand as long as you allow time to swallow it in. However, the deeper you get into it, it can be overwhelming at times. But as you said, the grammar is logical. Very rarely did I come across a rule that seemed outlandish. And what rewards were gained? For me, the satisfaction of understanding a language that's different from both Spanish and English (my native languages). Learning how to read the script and exploring the regions where it's understood is highly rewarding. Plus, MSA helped me adjust to a few of the dialects very easily and I got to explore several cultures that fascinated me. And again, out of curoisty, unless you're interested in Arab literature or reading the Quran in it's original language, what are the benefits of learning to read and write the Arabic script? Well, besides the rich literary history that Arabic has (poems, 1001 Nights, etc.), the main purposes of MSA/written Arabic are to understand media and newspapers. If you were interested in understanding the news/reading articles from Al-Jazeera and other programs (be it politics, entertainment, or sports, etc.), then learning it is a must. Plus, understanding the script is key to better understanding parts of the culture as well, such as calligraphy and the other arts. If you're solely interested in speaking with the people, and not at all in writing or reading Arabic or understanding parts of media, then that might make you feel like learning a dialect instead. But IMO, you'd be missing out on a lot if you didn't get both facets of the language. Plus, resources for dialects are far fewer and less reliable than even MSA resources. MSA is understood (though not usually spoken by default) throughout the Arabic-speaking world. The Egyptian dialect would follow, and out of the dialects, it has more books/tapes to follow. In all, I wouldn't be too daunted by the script. Learning how to form words and basic sentences shouldn't be very difficult. From there, you'd be ready to tackle the grammar. Before listing some books/tapes that I found useful, I'd like to look through my materials first, to make sure I don't miss anything and better recommend the ones that I found most useful. I'll post them later on. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| ANK47 Triglot Senior Member United States thearabicstudent.blo Joined 7097 days ago 188 posts - 259 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), Arabic (classical) | Message 7 of 29 16 October 2011 at 8:44am | IP Logged |
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Yes, as Humdereel said, I'd go with MSA and 1 dialect. I started with MSA and then moved to Levantine dialect. If you know 1 dialect then it isn't very hard to learn others. You really do need to study a dialect though.
The reason Arabs can understand all dialects (except ones west of Egypt) is because they have had at least some exposure to them. An Egyptian doesn't hear only Egyptian his entire life. He gets exposed to the surrounding dialects through TV. Just as an American might know what a pram, lorry, and WC are even though they aren't used in America, Egyptians will know a few Iraqi words. (The Iraqi and Egyptian dialects are much more different from each other than are American and British English.) If someone grew up in Egypt and never heard an Iraqi speak at all, they would have trouble understanding him. Once you know a dialect and MSA you will be able to find a common sort of dialect-MSA mix that you can speak when speaking to someone that isn't from the country who's dialect you learned, but if they speak their dialect as if they were talking to their mother or friend you would be lost. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6272 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 8 of 29 16 October 2011 at 2:53pm | IP Logged |
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Yes, MSA plus at least one dialect.
The problem of the dialects is that it is often the most common words that change. Verbs like equivalents for "want", "do", names of common foodstuffs and so on. FSI has a list somewhere of the kind of vocabulary most likely to change. I'll see if I can dig it up. And here it is (see pages 48 and 49) http://fsi-language-courses.org/Courses/Arabic/FSI%20-%20Lev antine%20and%20Egyptian%20Arabic%20-%20Comparative%20Study.p df Edited by William Camden on 16 October 2011 at 2:57pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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