13 messages over 2 pages: 1 2
Cainntear
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Scotland
linguafrankly.blogsp
Joined 6015 days ago
4399 posts - 7687 votes 
Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh
| Message 9 of 13 10 November 2011 at 8:58am | IP Logged |
Stephen7878 wrote:
| As far as the "andare + a + infinitive", that's exactly what I was talking about but it seems like there are differing opinions about that on here. |
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The trouble is, their opinions might not really be differing on the Italian, but on the English.
I know that when learning Italian, I've been told something similar to what both of the native speakers here have said (from different teachers, obviously), so it's quite likely that English teachers in Italy will teach both ways, to....
1 person has voted this message useful
| xander.XVII
Diglot
Senior Member
Italy
Joined 5058 days ago
189 posts - 215 votes
Speaks: Italian*, EnglishC1
Studies: French
| Message 10 of 13 10 November 2011 at 1:56pm | IP Logged |
Emme wrote:
Kartof wrote:
Stephen7878 wrote:
....the simple past would be "ho
corso".
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Also, from my knowledge of Spanish, I'm guessing that this tense in Italian is the
present perfect and not a past tense at all (i.e. have run). |
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That’s only partially right, I’m afraid, as the tense ‘ho corso’ is built symmetrically
with the present perfect ‘have run’ in English, but for Italians it is a past
tense. In fact, its name is passato prossimo which literally means ‘near past’,
and it’s generally used where an English speaker would use a past tense.
xander.XVII wrote:
In Italian you can use "vado a + infinite" like Spanish voy a
correr, it means you are
going to do that thing.
It's like saying "I am about to" referred to the future.
It expresses an idea of closeness of future because if you say:
"Vado a correre" it means you are NOW going to run, within a short amount of time.
[…] |
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Sorry, xander.XVII, but I don’t agree with you there.
To me ‘vado a + INF’ doesn’t convey the same future meaning as the ‘I am about to’
phrase in English does.
I really understand the phrase ‘vado a + INF’ rather literally, i.e. I understand that
I’m going somewhere to do something. The point to remember, though, is that that
somewhere is often omitted, i.e. you don’t usually specify where you’re going
because it’s rather obvious or easily understood.
EX.:
Vado a correre. = I’m going out / to the park / … for a run.
Vado a mangiare = I’m going to the cafeteria / to the restaurant … to have lunch.
Do you find that this explanation makes sense or are we really understanding our own
native language so differently?
By the way, there’s a way to translate the English ‘I am about to’ phrase keeping its
emphasis to the nearest future, and that is by using the phrase: ‘Sto per + INF’
EX.:
Sto per guardare un film = I’m about to watch a movie
Sto per uscire = I’m about to go out
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Hi, no no, you have sheer reason, I was wrong, I confused those two meanings (despite
knowing their translation into Italian).
I am sorry for causing troubles.
1 person has voted this message useful
| smallwhite
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5312 days ago
537 posts - 1045 votes
Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish
| Message 11 of 13 10 November 2011 at 3:15pm | IP Logged |
Cainntear wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
| When they talk about "simple past" and "simple future", the word "simple" means "one-word" (eg. corrí, correrò, run, ran) as opposed to "compound" and "two-word or more" (eg. ho corso, have run, will run). |
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That's an understandable assumption, but incorrect.
The "simple" here denotes the simple aspect, otherwise known as the indefinite aspect. The simple/indefinite aspect gives an action, but doesn't say whether it's complete, or ongoing.
The other aspects in English are the continuous/progressive (he is doing) and the perfect (he has done). |
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Hmm... I've always read that simple means single-word. Eg.
"French has quite a few different tenses and moods, which come in two forms: simple (single word) and compound."
About.com
and
"English also has so-called "compound tenses", such as the past perfect and present progressive, which use modals to combine tense with other grammatical categories such as aspect."
Wikipedia
It's different in Italian?
1 person has voted this message useful
| Cainntear
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Scotland
linguafrankly.blogsp
Joined 6015 days ago
4399 posts - 7687 votes
Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh
| Message 12 of 13 10 November 2011 at 5:38pm | IP Logged |
smallwhite wrote:
Hmm... I've always read that simple means single-word. Eg.
"French has quite a few different tenses and moods, which come in two forms: simple (single word) and compound."
About.com
and
"English also has so-called "compound tenses", such as the past perfect and present progressive, which use modals to combine tense with other grammatical categories such as aspect."
Wikipedia
It's different in Italian? |
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The simple aspect is usually a single word form, and that has led many teachers to make the same assumption as you.
Unfortunately, it looks like About.com has just hired a teacher rather than someone who actually understands what the terminology means...
(Believe me, some of the nonsense you hear from TEFL professionals is so ridiculous it even makes me look like I know what I'm talking about!)
1 person has voted this message useful
| Emme
Triglot
Senior Member
Italy
Joined 5351 days ago
980 posts - 1594 votes
Speaks: Italian*, English, German
Studies: Russian, Swedish, French
| Message 13 of 13 10 November 2011 at 6:25pm | IP Logged |
@xander.XVII
Don’t worry, we all make mistakes. I’m just happy we could clear it up.
smallwhite wrote:
Cainntear wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
| When they talk about "simple past" and "simple future", the word "simple" means "one-word" (eg. corrí, correrò, run, ran) as opposed to "compound" and "two-word or more" (eg. ho corso, have run, will run). |
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That's an understandable assumption, but incorrect.
The "simple" here denotes the simple aspect, otherwise known as the indefinite aspect. The simple/indefinite aspect gives an action, but doesn't say whether it's complete, or ongoing.
The other aspects in English are the continuous/progressive (he is doing) and the perfect (he has done). |
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Hmm... I've always read that simple means single-word. Eg.
"French has quite a few different tenses and moods, which come in two forms: simple (single word) and compound."
About.com
and
"English also has so-called "compound tenses", such as the past perfect and present progressive, which use modals to combine tense with other grammatical categories such as aspect."
Wikipedia
It's different in Italian? |
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Cainntear wrote:
The simple aspect is usually a single word form, and that has led many teachers to make the same assumption as you.
Unfortunately, it looks like About.com has just hired a teacher rather than someone who actually understands what the terminology means...
(Believe me, some of the nonsense you hear from TEFL professionals is so ridiculous it even makes me look like I know what I'm talking about!) |
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It seems Cainntear is applying concepts like simple aspect and continuous/progressive aspect, which are typical of English verbs, to Italian grammar.
I’m not saying he’s wrong (I’m not up-to-date with new developments in grammar studies), I’m just saying that this is not how grammar is usually explained in Italian.
In fact, it seems that smallwhite is correct at least as far as how traditional Italian grammars use those words. To be sure I checked the terminology in a high school Italian grammar (the following quick translation is mine).
Quote:
Sotto l’aspetto formale i tempi si distinguono in semplici, quando le forme verbali di cui sono costituiti consistono in una sola parola (amo, temevo, arrivò, partirà), e in composti, quando le forme verbali risultano dall’unione del participio passato del verbo con una voce dell’ausiliare essere o avere (ho amato, avevo temuto, fu arrivato, sarà partito).
Maurizio Dardano, Pietro Trifone, Grammatica Italiana con nozioni di linguistica, Bologna: Zanichelli, 1983, p. 209.
From the formal point of view, tenses can be divided into simple tenses, when the verb consists of just one word (amo, temevo, arrivò, partirà), and compound tenses, when the verb is the result of the union of a past participle of the main verb and a form of either the auxiliary essere or of the auxiliary avere (ho amato, avevo temuto, fu arrivato, sarà partito).
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