|
 |
Yet another question about German | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| customic Tetraglot Groupie PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5822 days ago 44 posts - 66 votes  1 sounds Speaks: Polish*, English, German, Turkish Studies: Arabic (Written), Persian | Message 1 of 14 07 February 2009 at 11:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
I am just wondering whether these two phrases are correct. Especially when it comes to
the place of the verb: Stimmt es, dass er dieses Buch nicht hat lesen dürfen? Alle wissen, dass sie nicht gern einkaufen gegangen ist. Probably they are correct, because they are from my German grammar book, but I have no idea why the word hat in the first sentence comes before these two Infinitive. And why the word nicht is not before lesen? Because I would write it this way: "Stimmt es, dass er dieses Buch hat nicht lesen dürfen?" or "Stimmt es, dass er dieses Buch nicht lesen dürfen hat?"... Is there any rule specifying when to put the verb before, and when after these two other words? Edited by customic on 24 April 2009 at 10:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Liface Triglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/Lif Joined 5800 days ago 150 posts - 237 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Dutch, French | Message 2 of 14 07 February 2009 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
This is a special rule pertaining to the participle forms of modal verbs. When you use them in this form, the rule about dass making verbs go to the end is ignored. Another example:
Er bereut, dass er das Buch nicht hat lesen können. This also is the same form you use with lassen, or "to have something done for you". Du weißt, dass du deine Hose hat kürzen lassen. / You know that you had your pants shortened. If it puts you at ease: These forms are used very rarely in speech compared to their imperfekt counterparts. Almost everyone says "lesen durften" or "lesen konnten". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| customic Tetraglot Groupie PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5822 days ago 44 posts - 66 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Polish*, English, German, Turkish Studies: Arabic (Written), Persian | Message 3 of 14 07 February 2009 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
Liface, thank you for your answer! Now it does make some sense :) I knew there was a
rule for almost everything in German grammar and now I can see I was right. Thanks again! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ChristopherB Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 6258 days ago 851 posts - 1074 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English*, German, French | Message 4 of 14 07 February 2009 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
Yeah, this can be a bit of a tricky construction, but the rule is basically that if you have a sentence like that ending in two infinitives (lesen dürfen), the finite verb (hat) goes before it. The finite verb in the second sentence (ist) goes at the end because there is only one infinitive (einkaufen), while gegangen is a past participle.
Another example would be: Vielen Dank, dass ihr das Konzert zu etwas unvergesslichem habt werden lassen. I hope that doesn't confuse you any more than you are (or were) :( Also, the reason why the 'nicht' goes before the 'hat' is because it is a 'dass' clause: Stimmt es, dass er das Buch nicht gelesen hat? 'Nicht' goes before the finite 'hat'. Same principle applies when you have two infinitives, except the finite just goes before those, rather than at the very end: Stimmt es, dass er das Buch nicht hat lessen können? Hope that helps...somewhat. Edited by ChristopherB on 07 February 2009 at 11:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| rabyte Triglot Groupie Germany Joined 5972 days ago 44 posts - 46 votes Speaks: German*, English, French Studies: Spanish, Hindi | Message 5 of 14 08 February 2009 at 4:04am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
Wow, I would have never been able to explain that rule :)
But I noticed some typos..so just for the sake of completeness:
This should be "Du weißt, dass du deine Hose hast kürzen lassen."
"Unvergesslichem" is capitalized in this case, because it's a substantivated adjective.
I think that's also OK. It somehow points out the NOT. He was NOT allowed to read... Wheras the other version emphasizes the interdiction. He was not ALLOWED to read....in my eyes. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| customic Tetraglot Groupie PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5822 days ago 44 posts - 66 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Polish*, English, German, Turkish Studies: Arabic (Written), Persian | Message 6 of 14 08 February 2009 at 6:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
ChristopherB, your explanation also makes much sense to me, so thank you for it
:) Sometimes the grammar is not explained sufficiently enough in grammar books and that's when it's very helpful to get a piece of advice from more experienced language learners :) rabyte, that was exactly what I thought about this sentence with pointing out the NOT :) Although I am completely inexperienced when it comes to writing and speaking German (I can't say or write more complicated sentences, especially with constructions like this one above), I somehow felt that perhaps there are two different ways of saying this sentence with emphasising two differents aspects of it. I hope one day I will master German and will be able to use such structures in my writing and speaking... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| rabyte Triglot Groupie Germany Joined 5972 days ago 44 posts - 46 votes Speaks: German*, English, French Studies: Spanish, Hindi | Message 7 of 14 08 February 2009 at 11:30am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
@customic: You seem to have a good feeling for the language then!
All the best with your studies - viel Erfolg beim Lernen. I'm sure you'll improve quickly! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ChristopherB Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 6258 days ago 851 posts - 1074 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English*, German, French | Message 8 of 14 08 February 2009 at 11:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Ah, thank you. I also made another typo at the end, spelling lesen as lessen...ergh. 1 person has voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
